Socialization Dilemma - Follow-up

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Socialization Dilemma - Follow-up

Post by Jerry How » Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:48:17



Hello ludwig,

HOWE do you manage to keep posting here like you're a real dog trainer?
You've been exposed and discredited as a koehler trainer, ludwig. That
means you hurt dogs to train them.


Quote:




> >>follow-up, here goes.  First of all, this wasn't a formal consultation
but
> >>rather an exchange of professional favors. The behaviorist said that my
> >>dog's behavior had nothing to do with *** but rather was an
expression
> >>of "motherly protectiveness."  That's "motherly" protectiveness, mind

you,

Quote:
> >1) Sounds like you wasted you money on that behaviorist: did he have any
> >qualifications other than saying he was one?
> I don't think that he wasted any actual money since he bartered for

services.

See? That's sheer idiocy. Time is money, ludwig.

Quote:
> I would say that Norm got exactly what he wanted to get out of the

consultation.

He proved Jerry is right once again. I'll pay him to see five moore
"behaviorists"
just to prove my point five moore times.

Quote:
> I like that expression though, 'motherly protectiveness'.

Yeah, something you never see in your abused dogs, they're only worried
about YOU hurting them.

Quote:
> I'll have to remember that.

Won't do you any good, cause once you start hurting your dog that all
goes out the window.

Quote:
> It sounds like the trainer was trying to tell the guy his dog is
> ***/aggressive without actually telling Norm the dog is

***/aggressive.

NO, it sounds like the dog abusing Thug was trying to talk Norm into HURTING
and INTIMIDATING his dog to be FRIENDLY and GENTLE, which she IS.

Quote:
> Ludwig Smith

You got any non shock collar training advice for Norm, ludwig? HOWE can you
HURT this dog if she's out of sight and you don't have a shock collar on
her?

Quote:
> Dog FAQS
> http://www.moonsgarden.com/
> rec.pets.dogs.info

According to the "experts" on the faq's pages at k9web you reccommend,
there is no such thing as hurting a dog when you're "training" IT. "All dogs
NEED compulsion for all advanced training" according to our resident
*** at k9web, our own cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon:

Here's a little sindy mooreon and some good koehler (pronounced keeler
according to koehler and shock collar fan georgie***roach):

About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant
he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have
problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough,
or they have a very stoic dog in which case a collar may be
needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are
screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by
screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique just fine -- but
not with the behavior you had in mind!

Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the collar.
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch.

You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.

Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold the
dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull him
back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will do him
good later.

The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them, with
your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may refuse --
keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he really
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.

Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.

As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will  get control of him (put him in a sit with
a firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the dumbbell -- he
can pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his mouth
any more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.

When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the exercise.

You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or refuses
to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place the
dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch, force
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and gets
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't already
dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back where it
was, and pinch him to it.

There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once they
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So transition
to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet long. With this
you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the dumbbell,
teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog drops the
dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him try to
pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb is that
if he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.

Thoughts to Consider

Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something disgusting
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted some
step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go back
and fix it.

But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any of
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of groceries
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just love
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!"
=================

That ought to be enough to chew on, but there's so much MOORE
to appreciate about our dogs and their behavior:

The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962).  New York:  Howell Book
Book House(p. 52-53)."

 Hanging
 "First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more
than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic
actions could cause.  Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and
fairly to the point  where the dog makes his grab.  Before the teeth
have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.  As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
the dog is suspended in mid-air.

 However, to let the biting dog recover his footing while he still had
 the strength to renew the attack would be cruelty.  The only justifiable
 course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor
 inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is
 physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to
 the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps,
 vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side.  The sight of a dog
 lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it
 alarm you

 THE REAL "HOOD"
 "If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types of
 protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your
 efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
 "Professional trainers often get these extreme problems.  Nearly
 always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by
 avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds
 of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under
 correction.

 When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
 painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
 trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was
 incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists,
 breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins
 and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of the
 greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time.

 "With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be
 demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and
 certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer
 morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation."
 "Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in
 resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that
 situation.  (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much
 easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master."

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book
House, 1996 William Koehler

"Housebreaking problems":

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.

If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

Quote:
> --Cindy

Cheers..... j;~)