White GSD vs. White Dobermans

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White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by SERPENT7 » Fri, 03 May 1996 04:00:00



I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...

What about White German Sheperds?

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Cindy Tittle Moo » Sat, 04 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...
>What about White German Sheperds?

Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

It's possible that someone can be breeding them responsibly.  For
example, crossing out repeatedly to quality colored GSD's to bring
those genes in and using the resulting colored GSD's that are carriers
of white to produce some white puppies.  Unfortuantely, many GSD
breeders are breeding white to white and narrowing the genepool for
their whites even further. Therefore, many white GSD's are suspect due
to their breeder's practices.  You'd want to find one that was out of
a colored GSD, or had colored littermates.

So the white GSD has the potential to be an excellent specimen of
the breed...but the odds are against it.

--Cindy
--

   WAGGERY   U-CD Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC CD--Hershe   LABRADORS
   -------      Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery WC CGC--Angel      ---------

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Trudy Schofie » Sat, 04 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...
>What about White German Sheperds?

In answer to your question. DEFINATELY NOT!
 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Dogs » Sat, 04 May 1996 04:00:00




Quote:

>>I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...

>>What about White German Sheperds?

>Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
>straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
>breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
>GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
>came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
>were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
>end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
>So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
>puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
>inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

>It's possible that someone can be breeding them responsibly.  For
>example, crossing out repeatedly to quality colored GSD's to bring
>those genes in and using the resulting colored GSD's that are carriers
>of white to produce some white puppies.  Unfortuantely, many GSD
>breeders are breeding white to white and narrowing the genepool for
>their whites even further. Therefore, many white GSD's are suspect due
>to their breeder's practices.  You'd want to find one that was out of
>a colored GSD, or had colored littermates.

>So the white GSD has the potential to be an excellent specimen of
>the breed...but the odds are against it.

>--Cindy

Nice post, Cindy.  Now, if we can just get certain Labrador retriever
breeders to understand the harm done when breeding only for color.  If
I see another ad saying "We breed chocolate Labs," I'm going to shoot
someone.

--
Joe "Dogs" Finocchiaro

"To knock a thing down, especially if it is***ed at an arrogant angle,
is a deep delight of the ***."    George Santayana

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Twzl & Sligo heh heh h » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
>The breed is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd dog and
>although similar, except for colour, is very distinct.  They are bred
>for their temperment and have no known faults.  The breed is just as
>genetically sound as the regular colours of the German Shepherd!  
>You can find more information from various sites on the internet or
>from the Canadian White Shepherd Club or American White Shepherd club.
>You will find that the breed does NOT have a narrowing genepool!

I had thought that whites show up in litters of regular GSD's. So, how
can they be distinct?

Also, as far as temperment and no faults go, I can't believe this. I've
spent some time at White GSD matches, and seen some awful, awful dogs.
Spooky dogs, dogs with bad movement, dogs who were ***, the whole nine
yards. Along with some nice dogs. So to say no faults and great
temperment through out the breed is as false as if you said if for ANY
breed.

Ann, Twzl & Sligo
--
********************************************
Think I'm a real piece of work for saying that you shouldn't breed your
lame, out of standard, 8 month old puppy? Send me email for my web page. :)

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Trudy Schofie » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:



>>>I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...

>>>What about White German Sheperds?

>>Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
>>straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
>>breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
>>GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
>>came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
>>were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
>>end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
>>So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
>>puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
>>inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

>>It's possible that someone can be breeding them responsibly.  For
>>example, crossing out repeatedly to quality colored GSD's to bring
>>those genes in and using the resulting colored GSD's that are carriers
>>of white to produce some white puppies.  Unfortuantely, many GSD
>>breeders are breeding white to white and narrowing the genepool for
>>their whites even further. Therefore, many white GSD's are suspect due
>>to their breeder's practices.  You'd want to find one that was out of
>>a colored GSD, or had colored littermates.

>>So the white GSD has the potential to be an excellent specimen of
>>the breed...but the odds are against it.

>>--Cindy

Sorry Cindy but I have to say your information is incorrect!

I have a White Shepherd that has five generations of no inbreeding.
She is from a genetically strong background of white/white.  
The White German Shepherd  is a direct descendent of the German
Shepherd Dog and the two breeds share common roots and are similar in
appearance.   They have no genetic problems and in fact are bred
because of their excellent temperments.  There are many White Shepherd
clubs around the world and various web sites that can be visited with
info on them.  
You will find that the genepool is not as narrow as you originally
thought!

Trudy

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Trudy Schofie » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:



>>>I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...

>>>What about White German Sheperds?

>>Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
>>straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
>>breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
>>GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
>>came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
>>were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
>>end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
>>So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
>>puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
>>inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

>>It's possible that someone can be breeding them responsibly.  For
>>example, crossing out repeatedly to quality colored GSD's to bring
>>those genes in and using the resulting colored GSD's that are carriers
>>of white to produce some white puppies.  Unfortuantely, many GSD
>>breeders are breeding white to white and narrowing the genepool for
>>their whites even further. Therefore, many white GSD's are suspect due
>>to their breeder's practices.  You'd want to find one that was out of
>>a colored GSD, or had colored littermates.

>>So the white GSD has the potential to be an excellent specimen of
>>the breed...but the odds are against it.

>>--Cindy

I am sorry Cindy but I must disagree with your info on the White
German Shepherd!
I have a registered White Shepherd and she has five generations of
genetically strong background.  There is no inbreeding and always
white/white parenting.  
The breed is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd dog and
although similar, except for colour, is very distinct.  They are bred
for their temperment and have no known faults.  The breed is just as
genetically sound as the regular colours of the German Shepherd!  
You can find more information from various sites on the internet or
from the Canadian White Shepherd Club or American White Shepherd club.
You will find that the breed does NOT have a narrowing genepool!

Trudy

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Cindy Tittle Moo » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I am sorry Cindy but I must disagree with your info on the White
>German Shepherd!
>I have a registered White Shepherd and she has five generations of
>genetically strong background.  There is no inbreeding and always
>white/white parenting.  
>The breed is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd dog and
>although similar, except for colour, is very distinct.  They are bred
>for their temperment and have no known faults.

I did find this interesting.  Is the white GSD a separate breed
from the GSD in Canada?  Or one of the acceptable colors in GSD's?

Quote:
>The breed is just as
>genetically sound as the regular colours of the German Shepherd!  
>You can find more information from various sites on the internet or
>from the Canadian White Shepherd Club or American White Shepherd club.
>You will find that the breed does NOT have a narrowing genepool!

It may well be different in other countries. Looking over your post,
it looks like most of what you are saying is applicable in Canada.
In the US, however, the white GSD is not showable in the breed ring
and is actively discouraged by the national breed club.  Under those
conditions, finding good white GSD's is not easy in this country.
I'd be happy to point people toward Canada instead, though, if what
you say is true.

--Cindy
--

   WAGGERY   U-CD Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC CD--Hershe   LABRADORS
   -------      Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery WC CGC--Angel      ---------

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Dianne Schoenbe » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>They are bred for their temperment and have no known faults.  The breed
>is just as genetically sound as the regular colours of the German
>Shepherd.

"No known faults"?  Cool!  I'm going to have to call up the folks I
know who have a dysplastic, fear-biting white GSD and tell them that
in reality their dog is just fine.

Dianne

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Twzl & Sligo heh heh h » Sun, 05 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
>I did find this interesting.  Is the white GSD a separate breed
>from the GSD in Canada?  Or one of the acceptable colors in GSD's?

Well, I looked in my issue of "Dogs in Canada" THe standard for GSD's in
that publication says "black and tan, all black or varying shades of
sable." there is then a listing for the GSD club of Canada and the White
Shepherd Club of Canada (note the word German is dropped from the club name.)

 I then looked in the advertising section. There WS breeders listed. But
the only one shown with a show win looks to be winning the White Shepherd
of Canada Specialty show, NOT in a class at a regular all breed show. I
thus assume that White Shepherds who are shown in breed in Canada are not
shown in CKC shows. Is this correct? THey are shown as they are here in
the US, at White GSD club specialties which are not affiliated with the AKC?

Ann, Twzl & Sligo
--
********************************************
Think I'm a real piece of work for saying that you shouldn't breed your
lame, out of standard, 8 month old puppy? Send me email for my web page. :)

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Shado » Mon, 06 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:


>>I did find this interesting.  Is the white GSD a separate breed
>>from the GSD in Canada?  Or one of the acceptable colors in GSD's?

>Well, I looked in my issue of "Dogs in Canada" THe standard for GSD's in
>that publication says "black and tan, all black or varying shades of
>sable." there is then a listing for the GSD club of Canada and the White
>Shepherd Club of Canada (note the word German is dropped from the club name.)

> I then looked in the advertising section. There WS breeders listed. But
>the only one shown with a show win looks to be winning the White Shepherd
>of Canada Specialty show, NOT in a class at a regular all breed show. I
>thus assume that White Shepherds who are shown in breed in Canada are not
>shown in CKC shows. Is this correct? THey are shown as they are here in
>the US, at White GSD club specialties which are not affiliated with the AKC?

>Ann, Twzl & Sligo
>--  :)

Being a GSD breeder in Canada I may be able to shed a little light on
this subject.

You are correct in thinking and saying the white gene pool is limited
due to the requirement to stay white. If I want to retain all black dogs,
I will not breed black and tans in. If I want to keep all sable, the same
 is true. However, because of the small gene pool of the whites, I would
suspect that the occasional bit of "colored" *** *is* thrown in. I have 2 white
breeders that live in my area that advertise German shepherds in all the
colors and boast of having a white gene pool that "have no known faults".
It is to the point that many owners in our area are requesting certified
 pedigrees of their dogs with colors added (not something done in the
past).
 Here in Canada last year, White Shepherds were accepted to the show ring
and may be shown as a variety of the GSD. This was with much outcry form
the members of the GSDC of Canada. We did petitions, write ins etc but to
no avail; CKC ruled that whites may be shown as a variety. I have yet
to see one in the show ring here on the West Coast.
The "accepted" breeders of whites in Canada (known and accepted by the
 GSDC of Canada) are furiously trying to get their dogs recognised as a
distinct breed in Canada. Joanne Chanyi is one and I believe the
president of the White Shepherd Club of Canada. Our club is assisting
them as much as possible in reaching their goal. It is a ways off, though.
I really do not know any more than this; white is not my chosen color
nor is the type and style one that I would choose. I have yet to see
"a good one"
Shadow

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Linda Hobbe » Tue, 07 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

> >I have heard that White Dobermans are bad news genetically...
> >What about White German Sheperds?
> Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
> straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
> breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
> GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
> came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
> were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
> end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
> So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
> puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
> inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

Let me try to answer the question simply.

In German Shepherds the gene that causes the white color is not
of itself the cause of physical problems, though it may or may not be
associated with them because of bad breeding practises.

In Doberman Pinchers the gene (actually allele) that causes "white"
is actually an allele for albinism, and it also causes photo-
sensitivity (light sensitivity) and predisposes the dog to skin
cancer and other skin problems.  It seems to be associated with
serious temperament problems, but that may be the result of
association due to a small gene pool, or it may be due to
irritability because of discomfort caused by light sensitivity.

Hope this helps.


 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Holl » Tue, 07 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>>>Well, it's a slightly different story...let's see if I have it
>>>straight.  White GSD's have been around since the beginning.  The
>>>breed's creator, von Steph., disliked them (and most solid colored
>>>GSD's for that matter).  This attitude was perpetuated by those that
>>>came after him, so for decades, white GSD's were very rare, and most
>>>were culled & their parents pulled out of breeding programs.  So the
>>>end result is that the gene pool for white GSD's is *extremely* small.
>>>So much so, that if breeders try to maximize the number of white
>>>puppies (it's a simple recessive), they wind up doing a LOT of
>>>inbreeding on a less than ideal gene pool.

>>>It's possible that someone can be breeding them responsibly.  For
>>>example, crossing out repeatedly to quality colored GSD's to bring
>>>those genes in and using the resulting colored GSD's that are carriers
>>>of white to produce some white puppies.  Unfortuantely, many GSD
>>>breeders are breeding white to white and narrowing the genepool for
>>>their whites even further. Therefore, many white GSD's are suspect due
>>>to their breeder's practices.  You'd want to find one that was out of
>>>a colored GSD, or had colored littermates.

>>>So the white GSD has the potential to be an excellent specimen of
>>>the breed...but the odds are against it.

>>>--Cindy

> I am sorry Cindy but I must disagree with your info on the White
> German Shepherd!

Cindy's information is well-documented and historically correct.

Quote:
> I have a registered White Shepherd and she has five generations of
> genetically strong background.  There is no inbreeding and always
> white/white parenting.  

Then you have little understanding of genetics.  White-to-white breedings are
the *worst* way to get white-coated German Shepherds.  The original gene pool
of whites was extremely small, and probably 99% of white-coated GSDs today are
descended directly from white-to-white breedings of that pool.  Finding a
white-coated GSD with a "geneticially strong background" is *very* difficult,
and, unfortunately, there are *very* few breeders of whites who bother to
breed responsibly.  They breed for color, period.

Quote:
> The breed is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd dog and
> although similar, except for colour, is very distinct.

The "breed" *is* a German Shepherd Dog at this time.  It is not recognized as
a separate and distinct breed.  The reason whites tend to have a distinct
conformational difference is due to the limited gene pool on which whites are
based and generations of indescriminant breedings within that pool.  For
example, white-coated GSDs tend to have longer, pointier noses and large
"mule" ears.

Quote:
>  They are bred
> for their temperment and have no known faults.

Again, I think in reality you will find that 99% of breedings creating
white-coated GSDs are the result of breeding strictly for color.  If they had
"no known faults", they would not be white.  White is a DQ fault in
conformation in almost every breed club, including the original founding
breed club in Germany.  As for temperament, every white GSD I have ever seen
in classes or just around, with *very* few exceptions has both temperament and
serious conformation faults (other than the color).

Quote:
>  The breed is just as
> genetically sound as the regular colours of the German Shepherd!  

If you mean that there are no known health problems directly related to white
coats, you are correct.  However, years of indescriminant breeding of two
recessives from an inherently limited starting gene pool has impacted the
white-coated GSDs *seriously*.

Quote:
> You can find more information from various sites on the internet or
> from the Canadian White Shepherd Club or American White Shepherd club.
> You will find that the breed does NOT have a narrowing genepool!

She didn't say "narrowing".  She said "limited".  There's a difference.

You might want to get a copy of Malcom Willis' book on the genetic history of
GSDs as well as some of the original books written on the breed (including von
Stephanitz' 1925 book).  I think it will help you understand the many breeding
problems needed to be overcome to bring white-coated GSDs into their own.

It is *possible* to responsibly breed white-coated GSDs.  It's just not easy
to find people who are actually *doing* it.

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Holl » Tue, 07 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

> Sorry Cindy but I have to say your information is incorrect!

I would suggest that you read more about the documented history of GSDs and
study the genetics more closely.  You'll find that Cindy's information is
historically and scientifically accurate.

Quote:
> I have a White Shepherd that has five generations of no inbreeding.
> She is from a genetically strong background of white/white.  

If this is true, then you have a *very* rare occurance as things stand in the
breeding of white GSDs.  But, I'd be interested to know how you know that her
background is genetically "strong".  What titles do she and her ancestors
have in working and conformation competition?  What are the hip ratings of her
and her siblings and ancestors?  What about CERF, vWD, etc?  Those are the
things that make dogs genetically "strong", not just that they don't have
inbreeding or linebreeding in the last 5 generations.  *Many* lines of GSDs
(and other breeds) are carefully and *deliberately* inbred or linebred a few
generations back to strengthen a particular line's good qualities.

Quote:
> The White German Shepherd  is a direct descendent of the German
> Shepherd Dog and the two breeds share common roots and are similar in
> appearance.

The "White German Shepherd" is not a separate breed.  There are white-coated
GSDs currently, but white is not recognized by any kennel club as a distinct
breed currently.

Quote:
>   They have no genetic problems and in fact are bred
> because of their excellent temperments.

As I've stated previously, with one (and possibly two) exceptions, *every*
white-coated GSD I've seen or worked with has had temperament problems.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but some of the "information" you state here
is simply not backed up by historical documentation and genetic facts.  The
reality of how the *vast* majority of white-coated GSDs are bred just do not
match what you've stated here.  I *hope* this changes, much as I hope and work
for more responsible breeding in GSDs as a whole.

 
 
 

White GSD vs. White Dobermans

Post by Holl » Tue, 07 May 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

> I did find this interesting.  Is the white GSD a separate breed
> from the GSD in Canada?  Or one of the acceptable colors in GSD's?

As with AKC, under CKC white is registerable, but not showable in
conformation.  (This may have changed since I last looked, but I don't believe
so.)  There is a movement afoot to recognize "White Shepherds" as a distinct
breed (not "White *German* Shepherds"), but, as of yet, to my knowledge this
is still a grassroots movement.  There are clubs in the US for "White German
Shepherds", there is also the "White Shepherd Club of America".  I believe the
focus of the two groups at this time is different, however.