Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes - The Problem Is The Trainer, NOT THE DOG

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Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes - The Problem Is The Trainer, NOT THE DOG

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:31:29



HOWEDY carol,


Quote:
> Your post about desensitizing Finn was interesting.

Yeah, showed HOWE little tara knows about handling
and training dogs.

Quote:
> I'm using a similar method with Shayna,

Didn't you succeed with our ***y maida and his competitor
he sent you to?

Quote:
> but have not been using a clicker.

Forget about that damned clicker.

Quote:
> Instead, I've been using my voice

Duh-Oh!

Quote:
> ("watch me")

BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Quote:
> with treats

To feed your own ego.

Quote:
> when she behaves appropriately.

Isn't that nice. Then you diminish the treats? Or do you
continue to increase treats with improved behavior?

You ain't got no answer for that, do you carol? Look at
what you're doin. You tell the dog to watch you and treat
for good behavior. Then you discontinue the 'rewards?'
Or do you increase the reward?

Quote:
> Of course, she tends to watch my hand or pocket...

Cause you've taught her GREED, not understanding and
calmness.

Quote:
> the source of those yummies...

Competition?

Quote:
> rather than my face,

Your face shows her your fear and lies. She wants to hide
from that and everything else you tell her.

Quote:
> but at least she stops focusing on the other dog momentarily.

Yes, for a food bribe so the other dog doesn't get it from her.

Quote:
> Here are my questions:

Didn't ***y maida and his competitor train you and Shayna
to like other dogs and be safe and friendly?

Quote:
> if I've understood your method,

Like you understood ***y's methods? That was the pronged
spiked pinch ***collar, wasn't it carol? Did you advance to
the shock collar? Or did her turning on you for hurting her in
the presence of other dogs scare you away from HURTING
her someMOORE? Or did she pull you down and break your rib
before you got to that? See the thread "broken rib."

Quote:
> you were using the clicker to get Finn's attention, correct?

Brilliant. Of course, commanding the dog's attention takes
his thoughts TOO FAR AWAY from the problem you're training.

Quote:
> As opposed to the click signifying "you've already done
> something that I want so now you're about to get a treat?"

I'm not going to discuss the variety of ways the clicker cue is used.
You're clicker will never be effective as long as it's paired with food.

Quote:
> Did you use the clicker for anything other than desensitizing
> Finn to other dogs?

One has nuthin to do with the other.

Quote:
> Did he ever learn to relax around other dogs or did he just
>  learn to ignore them and focus on you?

This was a YEARS LONG project. The liklihood is the dog
would have got over his anxiety in that time anyHOWE
without the click cue.

I think the narcotics and pain he was in was moore responsible
for distracting him from the other dogs. The bad hip made him
not pull, and the diminished tension on his collar was what
cured the aggression.

Quote:
> (I'd accept either with Shayna...

You'll do ANYTHING to cure her aggression, except NOT HURT
HER someMOORE.

Quote:
> I'm just curious about your results.)

Birds of a feather.

Quote:
> Did it ever progress to the point where you could stop using
> the clicker because he knew what he was supposed to do?

The clicker doesn't teach situational learning or understanding,
it only cues an unthinking behavior.

Quote:
> This sounds like something that would work with my dog.

Our dog lovers fear dogs that think.

Quote:
> From agility classes, she knows what a clicker signifies...

Yeah? I can't imagine HOWE COME you'd need to click in
agility except on the table and that silly yellow paws line on
the gizmo. The teamwork alone, should cause the work to
flow flawlessly cause the dog is in such high gear working
with his partner, as in hunting... That's HOWE COME I can't
imagine youz guys twisting and pinching and shocking and
*** dogs to make them to their most favorite doggy jobs.

Quote:
> and she is _extremely_ food-oriented.

That's ridiculuous. That "food orientation" is greed and insecurity.

Quote:
> We've made some progress.

BWWWWWAAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!! See "broken rib."

Quote:
> On a casual walk,

Shayna bolted after a critter and broke you up, big time. That's
long after ***y maida and his competitor taught your dog to
turn on you for hurting her when she growled at other dogs,
EXACTLY as I TOLD YOU SO.

Quote:
> her safety zone is now about 25 feet from a large dog

EXACTLY.

Quote:
> (less, if the dog is very calm),

Amazing.

Quote:
> and double that for a small dog.

Doesn't that demonstrate her response is FEAR, not aggression?

Quote:
> If we're training, we can get a little closer,

Because she feels you're in control. Saying that, it's obvious
that when she's on lead on heel, she's not convinced you are
in control cause you're not issuing commands and threatening
her, as she's been forced to heel with your pain inflicting devices
till they're no longer meaningful. That means you've got to increase
the pressure. The pressure is already at MAXIMUM, that's HOWE
COME she's turned on you for hurting her in the presence of other
dogs, and that's HOWE COME she'll bolt and break your ribs,
unelss you're HYPERVIGILANT and prepared to HURT her TO
THE MAX.

Quote:
> but she is definitely not relaxed.

The problem is the trainer, NOT THE DOG.

Quote:
> I don't know how much more I can expect.

My student Valerie cured her dog/dog/handler/child
aggression in under three days, by learning HOWE
to handle the dog without pain and intimidation.

Nevyn cured his two *** fighing pit x kelpie ***es
in 23 days flat.

Quote:
> More detail, please?

All the information you need to know is in your FREE
copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.
Write me for the latest edition.

Quote:
> Thanks, Carol

Your trainer ***y maida offered to endors the FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual if I'd lay off of
exposing him "cause he's got to make a living."

Quote:
Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with your training
manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control psychos to obedient well
behaved companions within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the
success and have asked me to work on their dogs! I was working with a 5
month old Ridgeback female today and she was being an angel after like an
hour of working with her! it is AMAZING!! I pity those fools who take their
dogs to classes where the "Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a
degree? A masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the
street who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.

Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.

Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn

Nevyn says:
How are you?

Jerry says:
sup?

Nevyn says:
Oh nothing

Nevyn says:

My dogs are alot better now!

Jerry says:
fine

Jerry says:
tell me

Nevyn says:

dogs

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
Yup

Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?

Nevyn says:
No

Nevyn says:
Praised them

Jerry says:
ahh!

Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better

Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and
pours water on them

Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!

Nevyn says:
muahaha

Jerry says:
ok

Jerry says:
I'll go for that

Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you're
consistent

Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them

Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends

Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath

Nevyn says:
muahahaha

Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're suckin hind teat?

Nevyn says:
eh

Nevyn says:
nah

Nevyn says:
cant

Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin

Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it

Jerry says:
why not.

Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server

Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer
to see you ***and shock and lock your dogs in a box?

Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't already know,
huh?

Nevyn says:
hah

Nevyn says:
tell them they're ***ers who need to die

Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much

Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now

Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?

Nevyn says:
pfftt

Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training

Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual

Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!

Jerry says:
hhahahahaha

Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with EVERYTHING you're
wanting them to do?

Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.

Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass
off at him growling at his dogs???

Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Nevyn says:
LOL

Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!

Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune

=====================

Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into *** position when a
tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL

Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!

Nevyn says:
lol

Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything was in
your expert control.

Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------


Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST

Hello

I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler
(spots) x Kelpi (*** genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug
(don't laugh!).

They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and they are
friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously
*** over the other, and I don't have a problem with that,
however;

Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good whilst I'm
walking them, some days they are not. They are 3 years old and have
only been walking for about 12 months because my mom didn't walk them
and now I'm home so I walk them for about an hour and half every
afternoon. I take them to the park where they chase birds and swim in
the lake.

This is my problem :

The less-*** dog viscously barks at every other dog we walk
past; I have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when she does it,
and treating her with treats when she doesn't, using a ***chain, a
muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks.

She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ]

Also, the more-*** dog seems to know this is WRONG, when the
other dog barks, she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other dog as if
telling her to cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the
more-*** one and they fight on the leash... it is quite
disturbing to the people walking past.

And also the more-*** one is okay around other
dogs... SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely ignores them, and yet
other times she will attack them, like yesterday. The less ***
one I must keep on a leash if a person brings there dog to the park.

How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the methods
I have used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it just a pac
k-behaviour thing?

It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs attack some old
lady's or little girl's dog.

They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other dogs
around. Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying around the park
and they were chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them for
more than 90 minutes (They went straight to bed when I bought them
home!). Can anyone help me? Email me at my emails address,

Thanks,
Nevyn

=======================

Quote:
----- Original Message -----




Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter

> Dear Jerry,
> Just thought I would write to let you know how well Hunter
> is doing. He had been trained using the conventional methods
> for obedience. He had gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.

> Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around.  I had also tried using positive
> reinforcement methods that I had been trained in. He was so busy
> looking for the treat that he didn't really want to work.

> So I went back to using the pinch collar on him and also a gentle leader
> when we were in public.

> Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and he did deserve his reputation
> as a vicious dog. The vet had recommended that he be put down. I was in a
> panic when I found your web site.

> Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first started out with 5 years ago.
> I am a professional trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not
> help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs don't respond to any
> kind of training and that a vicious dog can never be trusted again.

> I disagree! Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him with me and he
> doesn't chase cars as much anymore which is one of his main problems.

> We are working on the dog aggression thing. And I am confident that will
> be successful too. I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that too is
> working good. I know of several rescue groups that would benefit from it.

> This is rather long I know but it comes from the heart. My Head Hunter
> Green and I have together along time and have been through so much
> together.

> Thank you for helping me save his life.
> Kay Pierce

============

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: The...

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that maligning
you and your training manual but tell them from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over there
to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him for growling at me.

I told her to tell him what a good boy he is instead. Lo and behold
he stopped growling and I could do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method and
my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten his
enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day. Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids through
the fence. I can now take him in the car with me again without him
trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is Do No
Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he belongs.

Thank you so much.

Kay

=============