Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

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Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:27:02



HOWEDY People,

Here's some malarkey from HOWER respected ethical
breeder lyin frosty dahl discussing karen pryor's click/treat
method... and HOWE "positive training" is not positive.

Then we got a couple of FACTS from The Puppy
Wizzzard about HOWE COME HOWER EXXXPERT
trainers cause seizures and other temperament and
behavior problems:


Subject: Musings on Discipline

Date: 1999/11/02

Karen Pryor relates an anecdote in "Lads Before the Wind."
She and another trainer are walking toward a tank/platform
where a porpoise show is in progress.  The trainer with
her is an accomplished senior trainer who has worked with
the porpoise currently performing.  The trainer conducting
the show is a relatively inexperienced junior trainer, and
the porpoise is lounging in the water, not responding to
the cue for a high jump.

From some distance away, the trainer accompanying Pryor
calls the porpoise's name in stern tones.  The porpoise
gives him a startled look and immediately executes the
high jump."

=========================================

Quote:
>> For a long time I thought there couldn't possibly be any
>> real discipline in a system of "pure positive reinforcement."

Discipline got to mean HURT, to HOWER dog lovers.

Quote:
>> This story is a counterexample.

Only on account of HOWER dog lover lying frosty
dahl wants to see punishment in the c/t method
only in order to justify her own PREFERENCE of
punishment.

Quote:
>> It appears that the senior trainer, David, had established
>> *authority* to which the porpoise responded.

IOW, the animal was AFRAID of the trainer.

Quote:
>> Certainly the trainers can do things, in the approach used
>> by Pryor et al., which the subjects found unpleasant, mainly
>> "pick up the fish bucket and walk away."

Yeah. That's HOWE COME the C/T method FAILS the
US Military Marine Animals 10% of the time, from the git go.

Quote:
>> Other anecdotes suggest that coherence and clarity are
>> important to animals

They're DUMB ANIMALS.

Quote:
>> being trained with reinforcement according to the principles
>> of operant conditioning,

Here, OC means PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION.

Quote:
>> just as they are with the dogs I train by force.

Not quiet, lying frosty dahl.

Quote:
>> What is discipline really?

In animals, it's an unethical abuse of authority.

Quote:
>> Anyone care to take a shot at defining it?

You'll end up in jail as an animal abuser...

Quote:
>> How "positive" is positive reinforcement?

Here we HURT animals to train them.

Quote:
>> The porpoises in Pryor's work only receive food by working
>> for it--there is an implied threat:  if you don't work, you starve.

Yeah. That's HOWE COME there's a built in 10% FAILURE rate.

Quote:
>> If I understand correctly,

You'll LIE to defend your sick and sickening POV.

Quote:
>> porpoises are somewhat fragile and a couple of days
>> without food may be life-threatening.

BWWWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! According to your skinnerain
method you just got to reduce their food intake 20%... to
MOTIVATE the critter to naturally WANT to do ANYTHING
you ask...

Quote:
>> Or is it reading too much into the situation to call it a
>> "threat," when the necessity of doing some kind of work in
>> order to eat is in inherent part of life for a wild porpoise?

No MOORE than gettin beat with a stick or shocked. Lucky
for them they ain't got ears to be pinched and twisted.

Quote:
>> I'd really like to hear from people who have some familiarity
>> with PR training and want to comment on the role of
>> discipline, how it is established etc.

It's not something HOWER dog abusers are able to understand...

--
Amy Frost Dahl    Retriever Training  phone: (910) 295-6710

Pinehurst, NC 28370         (http://www.moonsgarden.com/)


Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03

Quote:
> I live in the city that contains the Queen OF Positive reinforcement,
> called the third way.  Interesting.

Interesting? You wanna see INTERESTING? It's INTERESTING
that karen pryor KILLED HER KAT cause she couldn't C/T IT
not to***in her stove top.

INTERESTING that she admits to not being a particularly good
dog trainer.

INTERESTING that bribing animals FAILS at least 10% of the time.

Quote:
> I use motivational methods.

That so? You're a liar and a dog abuser to boot.

Quote:
> Food for GOOD DOG,

You BRIBE and WITHHOLD treats.

Quote:
> and no food when not good.

And tha's positive motivation? No. That's HOWE COME you
KILLED YOUR DOG Quark.

Quote:
> An amazing thing.

INDEEDY! Your "training" caused the seizures for which YOU KILLED HIM.

Quote:
> I don't have to yell, cause pain, or irritate my competition
> ***.  She KNOWS she is wrong when I give her the LOOK,

You mean, when you INTIMIDATE IT...

Quote:
> and she tries very hard to correct it.

That's positive training here abHOWETS.

Quote:
> Her son, goes into the giggles.

That's ANXIETY.

Quote:
> My rescue

The WON you KILLED?

Quote:
> used to like to see how many ways he could do things.
> I train all the same way.  I have gotten EXCELLENT results,
> but the dogs themselves respond VERY differently:)

Yeah. Some of them have seizures and GET DEAD.

Quote:
> Mindy and the Muddy paws pack
> U- CDX Strange Quark UDT,OA,NAJ, CGC (Retired, 8 UDX legs,
> 20 OTCh points, epilepsy too severe:(U-CDX Tribute's Three X The
> Charm UD,TDX,OA,NAJ,CGC working on OTCh and UDX) and her
>11 month old son Muddy Paws Tri the Truth TD (5 Breed points:)


Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03

Quote:

>>> What is discipline really?
>> In the example you gave, discipline was an understanding
>> in common between the trainer and animal about expectations.

RIGHT! IOW, you're lying and attributing things to DUMB ANIMALS
that you couldn't attribute to a child...

Quote:
>> A certain level of performance was expected by the trainer

Or the critter would get PUNISHED.

Quote:
>> and understood by the animal.

INDEED.

Quote:
>> And maybe that's not a bad overall definition.

Right. Ask mud e poz.

Lynn K.


Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03

Quote:
>> I think it's about the fundamentals of rules:

That so? The rules that sez you can jerk and ***and
shock and withhold food from dumb animals?

Quote:
>> 1) Only one player may make the rules.

Yeah... That's The Puppy Wizzzard.

Quote:
>> 2) All the players must understand the rules.

Yeah. We're workin on that right now...

Quote:
>> 3) All players must understand who makes the rules.

You bums ain't gonna like this...

Quote:
>> 4) The rules must remain black and white, with no gray area.

Yeah. We're gonna get LAWS passed protecting J.Q. Pubic from
being abused by lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards who
hurt and kill dogs and try to get HOWET callin THAT, training.

Quote:
>> It's the reponsibility of the rule maker not only make the rules,
>> but to make sure all the players understand #'s 1-4.

Yeah. Or HURT and KILL the animal, when IT don't undersand.


Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/05

Quote:
>> Hmmmm, what a great topic, Amy. Thanks for bringing it up.
>> I hope that there will be lots of interesting responses.

Yeah. We've got quite a few very interesting case histories of
HOWER dog lovers hurtin and killing dogs and tryin to get
HOWET callin THAT, training.

Quote:
> To me, discipline is mostly about placing *limits* on behavior.

Right. Limits.

Quote:
> I know that this is too general a term to be much help

No problemo! We'll just limit PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION.

Quote:
> (and I'll explain further), but I think that the term "limits" is a subtle
> shift from thinking about "disciplining" a dog.

Yeah. It's all abHOWET semantics here abHOWETS.

Quote:
> To me, discipline implies punishment (in the colloquial sense),

You mean HURTIN and INTIMIDATING.

Quote:
> while placing limits implies that the handler is responsible for
*preventing*
> self rewards for certain behaviors.

IOW, MANAGEMENT, not training.

Quote:
> I haven't read the KP book that you are refering to, so I'm not sure
> about the "food for survival" thing....

HOWE do you think we motivate HOWER critters to want their food bribes?

Quote:
> I'm surprised that the *only* way that the porpoises (porpoisi? <BG>) got
> to eat was to work for it.

That's the essence of C/T. The treats are part of the daily diet.

Quote:
> That's not been my experience with treat based reward training.

Right. That's HOWE COME you got to HURT your dogs to train them.

Quote:
> I have to say, though, that I have worked with *many* dogs that
> are "slow eaters" (leave their food in the bowl all day) who act like
> they haven't eaten in weeks once I picked up a handful of their food
> and started working with them.

Yeah... cause of the threat of LOSING IT.

Quote:
> Same food, out of the same bowl (which was still
> sitting where they left it), but suddenly it was an interesting
> interaction for the pup.

No, it was suddenly in jeopardy of bein STOLEN by his handler.

Quote:
> When I first start working with a class or a new pup, I generally limit
> their behavior by preventing any fun (or self-rewards) for undesirable
> behaviors.

That's IDIOCY. You cannot train a behavior you PREVENT.

Quote:
> If they pull....we go nowhere....

BWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! You mean, you oppose the dog
and prevent IT from enjoying being with you till IT stops pullin.

Quote:
> if they look up at the handler, praise, handler brings the treat
> to their left side, pup follows, handler starts walking as they
> release the treat.

That's pathetic.

Quote:
> All rewards disappear if the pup does not give the desired behavior.

That's IDIOCY.

Quote:
> Tons of rewards appear if s/he does.

You mean a jackpot? You're a imbecile. Dogs do not understand
or appreciate "jackpots."

Quote:
> The praise is a reward, the treat is a reward,
> *and* the moving forward is a reward.

BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BUT THERE'S NO REWARD IN JUST WORKING FOR YOU.

Quote:
> I don't do PP work

IOW, you mean you DO HURT your dogs.

Quote:
> (not sure if I ever will),

Because that's your human nature.

Quote:
> but I understand that they take this "limiting" of undesirable behaviors

That's IDIOCY! You cannot BREAK a behavior you LIMIT. In order
to BREAK a behavior, you got to ELICIT it, and THEN interrupt
the thought process, and not by bribing or giving an alternate
incompatible behaivor.

THAT'S HOWE COME YOU GOT TO HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM.

Quote:
> and apply it to what others do as "aversive" training as well.

You mean, HURT the dog.

Quote:
> For the "Leave it" command (which we used to teach using aversives only),

You mean by jerking and *** the dog on a pronged spiked
pinch ***collar or shocking IT.

Quote:
> many PPers

You mean trainers who do not HURT dogs, but inclduding those
who do bribe and withhold treats...

Quote:
> will have the dog on lead, walk up to a "Leave it" object, stand
> a few feet away, and say the command.

You mean, scream LEAVE IT at the dog?

Quote:
> If the dog is staring intently at it, *nothing* happens...the dog
> doesn't get to grab the object, doesn't get to self reward in any
> way. When the dog *chooses* to look away from the object,
> *then* play/fun/reward/treat/praise can happen....but not before.

That's idiocy.

Quote:
> In my training (mostly PR)

Mostly positive reinforcement with a bunch of bribes, withholding, PAIN,
FEAR, FORCE, and INTIMIDATION?

Quote:
> I lay the foundation using the same type of setting limits.

You mean, by AVOIDING behaivors you cannot train...

Quote:
> The dog is prevented from making the wrong choice,

Thereby not having any choice, therefore, NOT LEARNING.

Quote:
> and rewarded for making the right one....in virtually all things.

BWWAWAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

YOU HURT AND KILL DOGS TO TRAIN THEM.

Quote:
> For later work,

You mean, after the dog is TRAINED?

Quote:
> we introduce corrections as P-,

IOW, YOU HURT THE DOG.

Quote:
> removing a/the desired outcome for the dog if they do not comply.

You mean, PREVENTING the undesirable behavior the dog WANTED to do...

Quote:
> This can be devastating to the dog without inhibiting behavior, IMO.

You're doubletalkin us now...

Quote:
> For certain things, like the "Leave it" mentioned above,

The WON you jerk and ***the dog on a pronged spiked
pinch ***collar or shock IT while SCREAMIN 'LEAVE IT?"

Quote:
> I take a more intersactive approach than the PPers I know of.

You mean, the trainers who cannot train their dogs cause
they don't use all the tools necessary to hurt and intimidate
and limit their dog's CHOICES and preferences for PAIN?

Quote:
> I lay "claim" to the Leave it object by keeping myself between
> the object and the dog for the *teaching* part.

Oh. To teach the dog you're his partner?

Quote:
> When they give up and look away, they get rewarded.

That's IDIOCY. The dog will HOWEtwit you every time.

Quote:
> We do use corrections

You mean, YOU HURT the dog when YOU couldn"t make "IT" CLEAR?

Quote:
> for this command after the teaching phase.

WHOA! If the "teaching phase" TAUGHT, you wouldn't NEED to HURT the dog.

Quote:
> As of yet, I haven't found a method that actually creates
> *aversion* to the object that doesn't involve some sort of
> physical (although very indirect) correction on the dog.

EXXXACTLY! THAT'S HOWE COME YOU GOT TO HURT
AND KILL DOGS TO TRAIN THEM.

Quote:
> Again, thanks for brining up the topic....I'd be interested in what the
> others think about "discipline" as well.

Yeah. You'll notice your pals lying frosty dahl doesn't post here noMOORE.

Quote:
> Tara

And neither can you... cause you're a lair and a dog abuser.
 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rootm » Sat, 03 May 2003 00:17:11


HOWEDY People,

Here's some malarkey from HOWER respected ethical
breeder lyin frosty dahl discussing karen pryor's click/treat
method...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<hundreds of lines of BS cut and crossposts cut>

It has been reported that reading posts by the ThePuppyWizard can
cause seizures in readers.  They symptoms range in scope from light to
sever in 5 distinct stages:

1) Light but distinct seizures of the diaphragm (labeled LOL)
accompanied by distinct vocalizations of the glottis sounding like
this "Ha Ha Ha Ha" Harmless and can even be stimulating.

2) Moderate distinct seizures of the diaphragm (labeled LOL+)
accompanied by distinct vocalizations of the glottis accompanied by
uncontrollable squirting of liquid through the nasal passages - always
preceded by the swallowing of beverages (coffee, soda, tea etc.)
Relatively harmless except for a moderate to sever stinging of the
nasal passages and possible damage to equipment or persons  hit by the
discharge.

3)  Moderate to severe seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by
uncontrolled seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor. Labeled
ROTFLOL This can be quite disruptive and cause others to take notice
of the victim.  This is the most common response to said reading of
TPW posts.

4) SEVERE seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by uncontrolled
seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor in a prolonged state.
This is the second most common response. Labeled ROTFLMAO.  This can
be not only disturbing but cause minor aches in the side and
disruption of normal activities for prolonged periods.

5) VERY severe seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by uncontrolled
seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor in a prolonged state and
loosing bladder control. Labeled ROTFLMAOPMP.  This can be quite
disruptive as in ROTFLMAO and can cause problems due to the necessity
of having to change garments after an attack.

There is no known antidote for the root cause defined as rude,
ignorant, rambling posting (and multiple cross postings to distinctly
different news groups) by a mentally deficient poster named
ThePuppyWizard (AKA Jerry Howe).  This parasite contributes nothing
while all the while claiming "INSTANT" and "IMMEDIATE" results.  While
the parasite *may* have had some beneficial value at one time, the
benefits are all lost due to the oafish, ignorant, vile and
non-germane issues that he keeps repeating over and over ad nauseam .
The parasitic element has obviously not heard of the "honey vs.
vinegar" principle and continues to alienate a projected 99.999% of
all other news group posters with wild accusations and bold faced lies
accompanied by rambling falsified "testimonies".

There are only a limited number of options available to a news group
reader to combat infection by the parasite.

1) Ignore his posts.  This can be hard to do as the parasite is so
prodigious in it's infection often posting multiple times to the same
thread with repeated false information.  Often times he posts replies
to his OWN posts with no others contributing to the thread, clearly
demonstrating his diminished m***values and mental capabilities.
This is especially *** users who must use public news sources i.e.
Google groups.

2) News Reader Filtering.  This is accomplished by beneficially users
posting replies to TPW and using the NINNYBOY tag in the subject line.
 This does not stop posts originating from TPW as he will not
cooperate and mark his own posts with the NINNYBOY tag.

3) KILLFILE.  Similar to filters it is the ultimate tool that is the
recommend way of eliminating exposure to his nonsense.  This and
filtering are again not available to readers that must use Google
groups or other web based news sources.  This is also made more
complicated by TPW mutating his name and sometimes even posting under
his mates name thereby causing her to suffer for his own lack of
common sense.

TPW is a scourge causing untold damage to himself and any possible
integrity he once might of had.  He contributes nothing to 99.9999% of
readers because of his caustic, dim witted, false accusations and
total rejection of any other method but his own.  His failure to
recognize other's mistakes or handle them tactfully voids his
credibility. His constant repetition of other's admissions of valid
errors, while doing no real harm, validates his ignorance and idiocy
while the refusal to accept responsibility for any regard of social
values further proves his lack of common sense.

One can only pray that he have an epiphany to reveal to himself his
own self delusion and shock him back to reality.  We can only hope.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Tara O » Sat, 03 May 2003 00:34:58



Quote:

> It has been reported that reading posts by the ThePuppyWizard can
> cause seizures in readers.  They symptoms range in scope from light to
> sever in 5 distinct stages:

> 1) Light but distinct seizures of the diaphragm (labeled LOL)
> accompanied by distinct vocalizations of the glottis sounding like
> this "Ha Ha Ha Ha" Harmless and can even be stimulating.

> 2) Moderate distinct seizures of the diaphragm (labeled LOL+)
> accompanied by distinct vocalizations of the glottis accompanied by
> uncontrollable squirting of liquid through the nasal passages - always
> preceded by the swallowing of beverages (coffee, soda, tea etc.)
> Relatively harmless except for a moderate to sever stinging of the
> nasal passages and possible damage to equipment or persons  hit by the
> discharge.

> 3)  Moderate to severe seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by
> uncontrolled seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor. Labeled
> ROTFLOL This can be quite disruptive and cause others to take notice
> of the victim.  This is the most common response to said reading of
> TPW posts.

> 4) SEVERE seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by uncontrolled
> seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor in a prolonged state.
> This is the second most common response. Labeled ROTFLMAO.  This can
> be not only disturbing but cause minor aches in the side and
> disruption of normal activities for prolonged periods.

> 5) VERY severe seizures of the diaphragm accompanied by uncontrolled
> seizure like involuntary rolling on the floor in a prolonged state and
> loosing bladder control. Labeled ROTFLMAOPMP.  This can be quite
> disruptive as in ROTFLMAO and can cause problems due to the necessity
> of having to change garments after an attack.

My own studies have found 2 other medical problems caused by reading this
person.

1.  Eye rolling.  While in and of itself, this isn't a health hazard but its
believed to have the potential for causing headache, pulsing and in severe
cases, temporary blindness.

2. Red Haze, otherwise known as "seeing red."  Red Haze seems to not just
affect the vision, but it also has the ability to increase *** pressure
and in some people, cause the protrusion of veins on the sides of their face
and/or neck.  While there may be different cures for Red Haze, it is this
poster's opinion that the rapid spewing of loud oaths, to include the use of
vile name calling, is the most effective mode of relieving Red Haze.  Fist
slamming and foot stomping are generally acceptable accompaniments to the
above.

--
Tara

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rootm » Sat, 03 May 2003 21:39:23


Quote:

> 2. Red Haze, otherwise known as "seeing red."  Red Haze seems to not just
> affect the vision, but it also has the ability to increase *** pressure
> and in some people, cause the protrusion of veins on the sides of their face
> and/or neck.  While there may be different cures for Red Haze, it is this
> poster's opinion that the rapid spewing of loud oaths, to include the use of
> vile name calling, is the most effective mode of relieving Red Haze.  Fist
> slamming and foot stomping are generally acceptable accompaniments to the
> above.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This particular indicator appears to be a psychosomatic since the
situation that causes the attacks (i.e. the dim-witted posts) are
clearly farcical and cannot be construed by anyone having an IQ of
more than 60 to be serious, much less relevant.

I suggest that if persons are experiencing such symtoms that they take
a deep breath, possibly a chill pill and realize that TPW is absolutly
the most ignorant parasite in the group RPSB.  His threats, name
calls, brainless  remarks cannot and should not be taken seriously.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 04 May 2003 02:28:07


You can't post here noMOORE.


Quote:

> > 2. Red Haze, otherwise known as "seeing red."  Red Haze seems to not
just
> > affect the vision, but it also has the ability to increase ***
pressure
> > and in some people, cause the protrusion of veins on the sides of their
face
> > and/or neck.  While there may be different cures for Red Haze, it is
this
> > poster's opinion that the rapid spewing of loud oaths, to include the
use of
> > vile name calling, is the most effective mode of relieving Red Haze.
***
> > slamming and foot stomping are generally acceptable accompaniments to
the
> > above.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> This particular indicator appears to be a psychosomatic since the
> situation that causes the attacks (i.e. the dim-witted posts) are
> clearly farcical and cannot be construed by anyone having an IQ of
> more than 60 to be serious, much less relevant.

> I suggest that if persons are experiencing such symtoms that they take
> a deep breath, possibly a chill pill and realize that TPW is absolutly
> the most ignorant parasite in the group RPSB.  His threats, name
> calls, brainless  remarks cannot and should not be taken seriously.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rootma » Sun, 04 May 2003 08:09:56


Quote:

> You can't post here noMOORE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ummmm, I don't think so Jerry.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rock » Sun, 04 May 2003 11:02:01


Rootman said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Quote:
> Ummmm, I don't think so

It doesn't work, whatever you're doing.  Plonk.

--
--Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rootma » Sun, 04 May 2003 12:49:45


Quote:

> Rootman said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

>> Ummmm, I don't think so

> It doesn't work, whatever you're doing.  Plonk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah I know, I just couldn't resist.  The original post was so stupid my
satirical wit just kept coming up with stuff.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Thu, 29 May 2003 12:30:33


BET ON IT.


Quote:

> > You can't post here noMOORE.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Ummmm, I don't think so Jerry.

 
 
 

Seizures Caused By Clicker Training And Punishment

Post by Rootma » Thu, 29 May 2003 12:46:39



OK how about $1,000,000 dollars?  WooHoo! looks like you lost already! Here
I am posting again Adolph.

Goose step your way overhere and pay up, oh, and I always require cash from
liars like you. Small bills please.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
> BET ON IT.




>> > You can't post here noMOORE.

>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>> Ummmm, I don't think so Jerry.