White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

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White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by wendy fullerto » Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:00:00



I agree... the reason the "white" was removed from the GSD was not
because of herding...but for security reasons...in SERVICE work... a
white dog at night is VERY noticible!  if you look at the cloths our vets
wear, you'll see that they dont want to be SEEN by the enemy...with is
wrong for those reasons...but since we are not at war here, what's the
problem??  Check out the SHILOH SHEPHERDS by going into Rare Breeds ..S.
you will find LOTS of breeders to talk to!  
 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Slinsk » Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>>  You can also get white dogs
>> from a black sire and damn, if they are both recessive for white.

>Not in GSDs.  All black coat is also caused by a double recessive, so an
all
>black GSD can't carry a recessive for white.

I read the GSD FAQ color section more than once, and I remember seeing
that you can get whites from two blacks.  

By the way, you can register a white shepherd with the AKC, and show it in
obedience and agility and tracking.  You cannot show them in conformation,
as it is a disqualification.

I will buy the argument about visibility at night and the guard duty
aspect.  I have a harder time with the soundness issue.  In every breed
(including mine, bassets) there are people who simply should not be
breeding anything, regardless of coat color.  There are those in every
breed who are breeding for the right reason.  Since the breed as a whole
is less than 100 years old, who is to say that white is wrong?  In my all
breed club's obedience classes, we have an all white shepherd puppy and a
black and tan shepherd puppy.   If I had to choose one of those two dogs
to take home based on soundness of body and mind, I would have to take the
white.  The normally colored dog is a spook and has one of the worst rears
I have ever seen.  On the other hand, the white loves everyone and is also
physically sound.  These two animals, by the way, are 7 months old.  The
owners of the white puppy are responsible pet people who have spayed this
animal, and are just looking for others who are also interested in the
white shepherd to share information with.  They are interested in doing
competitive obedience, and I think they should be encouraged, rather than
shot down because of the color of their puppy.

Lisa

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Jani » Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:00:00


  The dogs mentioned as being white herding dogs (komondorok, pulik,
kuvasok) are a different type of herding dog: flock guardians.  Flock
guardians are traditionally raised with the sheep and protect them
because they see the sheep (or goats) as their "pack".  Dogs like the
GSD, collie, bearded- or border- collie protect the animals because they
are trained to.  Flock guards are essentially the alpha sheep, and are
usually white or light colored, and very large. Herding dogs have
variable sizes and are very energetic, agile, intelligent,work oriented
dogs.  
  BTW, according to the border collie homepage, an all white border has
a more difficult time controlling a herd of sheep than it's parti-color
counterpart.

Janis and Barney the WonderDog

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Slinsk » Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:00:00


I stand corrected.  

Lisa

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Holl » Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

> Without getting into a discussion of color in Shepherds (it is not my dog,
> nor even my group), does anyone know of a list or specialty club for White
> German Shepherd fanciers?  

There's a person on the GSD FAQ Rescue list in TN who does white rescue.  She
would know some of the addresses for specialty clubs.

Quote:
> For those who so adamently oppose the white color, could you explain why?
> I have heard the argument that white dogs do not do as well with
> herdingguarding sheep.  I don't believe that one, as there are plenty of
> herding dogs whose usual color is white.  For instance, Great Pyrennes,
> Komondors, Kuvasc, Puli, the list goes on.

The father of the breed (Max vonStphanitz) designed the standard to DQ white
because he felt that whites were not as visible in the fields as color-coated
GSDs.

I realize that there are people who like the white coat, but to me, part of
the beauty and uniqueness of the breed is the coat coloration and variety.  I
also object to the way *most* whites tend to be bred, with no regard to any
other trait other than coat color.  What you end up with are dogs that just
barely resemble the breed in conformation (and not at all with the coat).  The
white coated dogs have a very lmited gene pool and breeding white-to-white is
*not the way to get a sound dog.

Quote:
>  You can also get white dogs
> from a black sire and damn, if they are both recessive for white.

Not in GSDs.  All black coat is also caused by a double recessive, so an all
black GSD can't carry a recessive for white.

(Btw, although black is showable in conformation under AKC, I feel the same
way about the all black coat for pretty much the same reasons...though the
gene pool is not quite as limited... but it's close.)

Quote:
>  With
> all of the health problems associated with any breed, I am not sure I
> would destroy a healthy, sound animal simply because of it's color.  All
> comments welcome.

Since all white in GSDs is pretty easy to predict, very few whites are culled.
 Breeders wanting white pretty much have to breed *for* white.  In other
breeds, white is often related to other health problems, like deafness.

-Holly

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Twzl & Sligo heh heh h » Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
>I read the GSD FAQ color section more than once, and I remember seeing
>that you can get whites from two blacks.  

Go back and read it a third time, and notice who wrote the FAQ: the same
person that you are arguing over as to what the mode of inheritance is
for black. Actually I'll save you a trip on the bus: here's a quote: "The
black gene a is recessive to the other colors. Blacks bred to blacks will
only produce blacks. The sable colors are *** over the other colors."

I'm not sure where you read that a white can come from two blacks.
Certainly NOT from the FAQ.

Twzl & Sligo

--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Holl » Sat, 16 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:



> >>  You can also get white dogs
> >> from a black sire and damn, if they are both recessive for white.

> >Not in GSDs.  All black coat is also caused by a double recessive, so an
> all
> >black GSD can't carry a recessive for white.

> I read the GSD FAQ color section more than once, and I remember seeing
> that you can get whites from two blacks.

Well, I think you remembered it incorrectly.  Here is the text:

"      The black gene a is recessive to the other colors. Blacks bred to
       blacks will only produce blacks."

The basic body color is controlled by the Agouti series.

When you've checked it out again, if you have any questions, please feel free to
contact the author of the FAQ, and I'll be happy to answer.  :-)

Quote:
> By the way, you can register a white shepherd with the AKC, and show it in
> obedience and agility and tracking.  You cannot show them in conformation,
> as it is a disqualification.

Yes, I know that.  

Quote:
> I will buy the argument about visibility at night and the guard duty
> aspect.  I have a harder time with the soundness issue.  In every breed
> (including mine, bassets) there are people who simply should not be
> breeding anything, regardless of coat color.  There are those in every
> breed who are breeding for the right reason.  Since the breed as a whole
> is less than 100 years old, who is to say that white is wrong?

The parent club in the given region.  The GSDCA indicates it as a DQ fault,
therefore, the AKC standard does as well.  It is a DQ fault in the SV (the
German (original) German Shepherd Club) as well.  It is not a DQ fault in the
UK.  The longevity of the breed is not part of the issue.  The issue involves
1) the conformation of the dog as relates to its purpose (in this case herding,
protection, etc.) and 2) the responsible breeding of the dogs.

Quote:
>  In my all
> breed club's obedience classes, we have an all white shepherd puppy and a
> black and tan shepherd puppy.   If I had to choose one of those two dogs
> to take home based on soundness of body and mind, I would have to take the
> white.  The normally colored dog is a spook and has one of the worst rears
> I have ever seen.  On the other hand, the white loves everyone and is also
> physically sound.  These two animals, by the way, are 7 months old.  The
> owners of the white puppy are responsible pet people who have spayed this
> animal, and are just looking for others who are also interested in the
> white shepherd to share information with.  They are interested in doing
> competitive obedience, and I think they should be encouraged, rather than
> shot down because of the color of their puppy.

Yes, there are people who are vehemently against the white coat.  

As for the two pups in your obedience classes, that's simply an anecdotal
incident.  Nowhere have I said (or would I say) that all color-coated GSDs are
well-tempered, well-conformed, etc... in fact, it is to that point that I have
been trying to educate people for quite a long time.  I could tell you that in
my all-breed obedience classes, we have a white GSD and numerous color-coated.  
The white is squirrely... he's an okay (but ugly) dog once you get to know him,
but until then, he's spooky.  None of the color-coated GSDs are like that.  But
it tells you nothing about whites v. colors as a whole.  (And, yes, I've known
some very nice whites as well... and some really bad ones.)

Unfortunately, as I stated previously, *most* often breeders producing white
pups care far more about the white coat than they do any other aspect.  There
*are* people breeding for white who take care to make the best matches in terms
of temperament, health, intelligence, working ability and conformation (other
than the white coat), but they are rare.

-Holly

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Onewai » Sat, 16 Mar 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
heh) writes:


writes:
I read the GSD FAQ color section more than once, and I remember seeing
that you can get whites from two blacks.<<<  

Quote:
>Go back and read it a third time, and notice who wrote the FAQ: the same
>person that you are arguing over as to what the mode of inheritance is
>for black. Actually I'll save you a trip on the bus: here's a quote: "The
>black gene a is recessive to the other colors. Blacks bred to blacks will
>only produce blacks. The sable colors are *** over the other
colors."

>I'm not sure where you read that a white can come from two blacks.
>Certainly NOT from the FAQ.

>Twzl & Sligo

   First, let me say that I have emailed Holly privately on this.

with regard to color IF it said that two all-black GSDs cannot produce a
white puppy. But that is *not* what the FAQ says. Please read on...

   In the GSD breed, the color black is recessive to all other colors
EXCEPT white. Thus, it is very possible that 2 all-black dogs can produce
a white puppy (or puppies) if both parents carry the white recessive.
You're more apt to have this happen if the black parents came from
heterozygous parents that carried the black recessive gene than from two
blacks bred together who both came from a long line of blacks. But we all
know that recessive genes have a *** habit of popping up where and when
they are least expected or wanted. In essence, what I'm saying is that
black is recessive to all other GSD colors, but white is TOTALLY recessive
to all other colors, even black. (This may be why the color was "picked
on" originally -- because it is so totally recessive.)

   Thus, the FAQ is only partly right here. I suggested to Holly that it
needs clarification. It currently states: "The black gene (a) is recessive
to *THE* other colors. Blacks bred to blacks will only produce blacks. The
sable colors are *** over *THE* other colors." (emphasis mine)  If it
chooses to mention white at all (and it does), then it *should* read:
"Black is recessive to all other GSD colors EXCEPT white. Blacks bred to
blacks will only produce blacks UNLESS each black parent also carries the
white recessive. Sable is *** over ALL other colors."

   By the way, a solid black GSD that comes from a long line of solid
blacks will be a blacker black than a black that comes from two black and
tan or sable parents. They look the same, but if you put them side by
side, the homozygous black would appear absolutely "dead" black -- almost
blackish blue in comparison to the black dog who had other color parents.

   To the person that wanted to know about blue GSDs... Yes, they do occur
as do livers. Neither blue nor liver has anything to do with white. White
dogs do not cause color paling nor do they "cause" the dilution genes to
express themselves in any way. The gene for dilution is carried at
different loci than those for black or white. Basically, blue and liver
are dilution genes and "liver" affects the "b" locus (the one that
determines whether any black skin pigment can exist.) Brown or liver is
supposed to be associated with a lethal factor, although some authors
(Lanting is one) dispute this. At any rate, a liver dog (and this is true
in any liver breed) cannot have black pigment (nose, eyerims) and usually
have a lighter colored (sometimes even hazel) eye. Think of the Brittany,
for example. With blues, sometimes the dilution factor shows itself as a
"silver" puppy. This is a puppy whose black or dark body coloration has a
silver-like sheen. Some people describe it as looking like the puppy has
been dusted with snow. This usually fades as the *** coat comes in and
the pup may look normal except that it does not have the jet black nose
leather. Inste


"You have no power here! Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you,
too..."

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Holl » Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>   In the GSD breed, the color black is recessive to all other colors
>EXCEPT white.

As I've mentioned to Onewaits in e-mail, my copies of Willis' books on
canine genetics are currently loaned to a friend of mine.  I called this
evening to let her know that I need them back for a bit of research on
this.  In the meantime, she read some portions of Willis' book on
GSD genetics to me over the phone.  I'll need to have the book in hand
before I can state specifically on this point, but it does seem to state
that GSD coat is determined by the Agouti series, and white is not a
color in the Agouti series.  Therefore, it seems unclear as to what
Willis has determined in terms of blacks being able to produce white pups.
I have Willis' address, and if I can't determine from the text, I may well
write him personally and ask his thoughts on the matter.  It does state
that in the research of black-to-black breedings, 100% of the offspring
were black.  It also states that in white-to-white breedings, 100% of the
offspring were white.

I've been thinking about this the last few days since this thread popped
up again.  One thing I have been curious about is what would result from
a white-to-black breeding.  (Kids, don't try this at home! :-)  In my
current rather sleep-deprived state, I came up with the answers of:
Dalmatians... Holstein... Zebras... no, I don't think so.  :-)  Regardless,
I'm going to try to research these questions over the next period of time
and see if I can clarify.

Quote:
>"Sable is *** over ALL other colors."

And, actually, some sables are more *** over others, if I'm not mistaken.
(I'm going to check on this, too.)

Quote:
>   By the way, a solid black GSD that comes from a long line of solid
>blacks will be a blacker black than a black that comes from two black and
>tan or sable parents. They look the same, but if you put them side by
>side, the homozygous black would appear absolutely "dead" black -- almost
>blackish blue in comparison to the black dog who had other color parents.

And, this.

Quote:
>   To the person that wanted to know about blue GSDs... Yes, they do occur
>as do livers.

True... but the vast majority of breeders will never see a blue come out of
their lines.  They are rare (and, obviously, not a standard (or showable)
color).  Ditto for livers (and actually even less likely to be seen).  
And, unfortunately, some unethical breeders will pass these dogs off as
"Rare" by charging a premium price for them, never letting the buyer know
that these colors are DQ faults.

Quote:
> With blues, sometimes the dilution factor shows itself as a
>"silver" puppy. This is a puppy whose black or dark body coloration has a
>silver-like sheen. Some people describe it as looking like the puppy has
>been dusted with snow. This usually fades as the *** coat comes in and
>the pup may look normal except that it does not have the jet black nose
>leather.

Even then, the average person may not realize the nose (eye rims, etc.) are
not jet black.  (I have a picture of a blue puppy that appears as silver...
according to the accompanying info, the pup grew into a "black & tan" ***.)
Most of the descriptions I've heard are not "snow", but "flour"... same concept
and both are edible (but watch the snow :-).

-Holly

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Amy Hendr » Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I've been thinking about this the last few days since this thread popped
>up again.  One thing I have been curious about is what would result from
>a white-to-black breeding.

Probably, blacks. Maybe some blacks and some whites (if the black parent
is heterozygous in the color (C) location).

I think the cause of all this confusion is that Black (the GSD version,
anyway) *is* the least *** in the Agouti series. But the white color
comes from a completely separate gene: the Color series goes, in order of
***

C: Color factor; c(ch): chinchilla (kinda yellowish white); c(d): white/dark
eyes: (this is the white GSD gene); c(b) white/blue eyes; c: albino

Still, the idea of Harlequin GSD's is mighty amusing.

Quote:
>And, actually, some sables are more *** over others, if I'm not mistaken.
>(I'm going to check on this, too.)

Yep. Specifically, a(y): Golden (red sable in the US) is *** to a(w):
Grey (gray sable). That's just *** to all other GSD colors, though:
the *** Black that appears in (e.g.) Labs doesn't appear in the GSD.

Quote:
>>   By the way, a solid black GSD that comes from a long line of solid
>>blacks will be a blacker black than a black that comes from two black and
>>tan or sable parents.

Genetically, I don't see how this makes any sense (assuming Willis is
right about color transmission). Some dogs have good pigment, some dogs
have lousy pigment, that fades in winter, doesn't look "as black", or other
such faults. That applies to all colors. If it's true that the black color
is governed by a simple recessive, then it's going to appear whenever two
copies of the gene appear, regardless of where they came from. "Blackness"
isn't something that accrues interest and builds up from one generation
to the next.

If someone breeds a line of top-quality blacks, making sure only to breed
dogs with excellent skin pigment, etc, then you will certainly get a
"blacker black" than a black who just pops up in a BYB's litter with no
warning. But I strongly doubt it's because of "a long line of solid blacks"
but rather because of "a long line of solid *pigment*".

(Source: Willis, Practical Genetics for Dog Breeders.)

--

               My Dog is my co-pilot.

    ****   http://www.moonsgarden.com/~hendrix   ****

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Onewai » Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>Yes, there are people who are vehemently against the white coat.  

   And there are people who are enthusiastically for the white *dogs* --
just not as many as there are against them. :-(

 >Unfortunately, as I stated previously, *most* often breeders producing
white

Quote:
>pups care far more about the white coat than they do any other aspect.
There
>*are* people breeding for white who take care to make the best matches in
>terms of temperament, health, intelligence, working ability and
conformation (other
>than the white coat), but they are rare.

>-Holly

   Exactly Holly! I'd like to just say something about this issue of
breeding "for white color." Those of us who care about these dogs love the
dogs -- their color is really very incidental. They are white and when
they are bred to others of their kind, they produce white. So what??? No
big deal!!! As I mentioned before, there are 2 clubs in the United States
(and one in Canada) for white GSDs. I can't speak for the other club
because I am not affiliated with it. But our club members (The American
White Shepherd Association) sign a mandatory Club Code of Ethics that
helps to ensure that people are breeding to our breed standard, tracking
and recording all faults and any medical problems discovered in the
resulting progeny, and checking for existing health and hereditary
conditions BEFORE breeding. Does this sound to anyone here like we only
want white-coated dogs? NO!!! BAD HUMANS!!!  We want (need, insist upon)
*better* White Shepherds!  (And not necessarily more of them either...)
Believe me people, this goes waaaaaaay beyond breeding to just get more
white dogs!!!


"You have no power here! Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you,
too..."

 
 
 

White Dogs (was White German Shepherds)

Post by Amy Hendr » Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>> C: Color factor; c(ch): chinchilla (kinda yellowish white); c(d): white/dark
>> eyes: (this is the white GSD gene); c(b) white/blue eyes; c: albino
>I'm not sure about that chinchilla... I know it supposedly doesn't really
>exist in the GSD (virtual factor :-) according to Willis' book on GSD
>genetics.

Whoops, now that you mention it, I do seem to remember that he says no
chinchilla in GSD's (or maybe just "not proven" chinchilla in GSD's). I
was working with the handy table of color genes in _Practical Genetics_,
since Willis's GSD book doesn't show up here until next paycheck. What
I gave you above is the whole known C series, and not the GSD version,
which goes C; c(d); and maybe c(b) and c only we don't talk about those.

(Egads, I'm having *way* too much fun with this: what on *earth* have I
been doing in the English department for all these years?!)
--

               My Dog is my co-pilot.

    ****   http://www.duke.edu/~hendrix   ****