When is a bite not a bite

Description of your first forum.

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Kim » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00



I have been reading several threads about dogs biting kids. And I believe it
was Paulette that said most bites are not really bites.  To me , a bite
breaks the skin and a "snap" is what most people call a bite. The dogs teeth
make contact but not "drawing ***."  Now , that said I would still have a
problem with a large dog that showed a habit of snapping at kids.  Would a
pattern of snapping not indicate a potential of child aggressiveness <if it
was a child being snapped>?  And how could that be "trained out" or could
it?  I am referring to the larger dogs.  Most small dogs are the biters
<flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
or a fatality.  And to those of you doing legitimate rescue, do you have
adopters sign a contract that has a special amendment concerning adopting a
"not good with kids dog"?

Be gentle with me.

kim

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Cris Wall » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00




Quote:
>I have been reading several threads about dogs biting kids. And I believe it
>was Paulette that said most bites are not really bites.  To me , a bite
>breaks the skin and a "snap" is what most people call a bite. The dogs teeth
>make contact but not "drawing ***."

Of course, the problem is that snapping can easily escalate to biting.
Neither should be tolerated. Unfortunately, "it was just a snap; he
didn't hurt anyone" is often used as an excuse for not dealing with an
aggression problem.

Quote:
>  Now , that said I would still have a
>problem with a large dog that showed a habit of snapping at kids.  Would a
>pattern of snapping not indicate a potential of child aggressiveness <if it
>was a child being snapped>?  

I would say that a dog that snapped at kids certainly has the
potential to escalate to biting kids.

Quote:
>And how could that be "trained out" or could
>it?  I am referring to the larger dogs.  

I think that this is always a case-by-case decision that needs to be
made by an experienced behaviorist. Some dogs snap because they have
learned that it gets them their way, and these dogs will come around
with a good does of the "nothing in life is free" treatment. Some dogs
will never be reliable. But it all depends on the indiidual dog and
dog/owner relationship.

Quote:
>Most small dogs are the biters
><flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
>or a fatality.

My opinion on why this occurs is that people tolerate behavior in a
Pom or a Chi that they would never tolerate in a GSD or other larger
dog. A larger dog that bites people hard will be killed. A little dog
that does so may just be laughed at.
Cris Waller

Fast Fourward Flyball Team
www.flyball.com/fastfourward/index.html
Flat-coated retriever art gallery
http://www.moonsgarden.com/

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Paulette B.Nol » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


Be gentle with me.
kim

Okay I will : )
First you are correct in stating that most people who say the dog
bit,actually did not Also,if a dog snapped and I knew this dog snapped
and was given up... The dog would not be adopted out to people with
children,even after I worked with the dog.

Also, Kim, shelter work and rescue work are vastly different.

When you have a shelter,there are so many sweet dogs,that you neither
have time $ or room for a problem dog.

Shelter dogs that are put down mostly are: sickly,ill tempered,old,or
black and tan one year old male lab/shep/X's in my neck of the woods. :
(

Rescue work you have a lot more room.
Most rescue people are "breed specific"
That is like me, I rescue Chesapeake Bay Retrievers.

Mostly all the brown dogs I get have 'problems" with aggression,be it
food,dogs or humans. I will not take a dog that has been reported for a
biting incident,or quarantined,if they know of such. I have a contract
that must be signed,by the person or pound or shelter giving up the dog.

That said, the dog comes and lives with me,until I believe he has come
around.

I have been very fortunate because I am known by many, that I have a
"waiting list" most times for my chessies.

So they have already gotten my "gestapo" questioning via phone, and
coming to my home.

Maybe one out of twenty make it to get a dog from me.

They indeed SIGN a contract ,with lots of stipulations,four pages to be
exact! One of them is this dog is being adopted up,to you,because you
have stated you have NO CHILDREN,and you understand this dog should not
be around ANY CHILDREN. yadda yadda yadda...

Even though I am "covered" I would feel morally responsible if something
happened with a dog I adopted. That's me,so I really don't try to play
goD...
Children are precious,and need protecting,from ALL things.

In this sue crazy society,you have to have lawyers,and I do,as rescue
work can be quite "crazy"

My grandmother use to say "Blessed be nothing" she was right....

I believe the reason why my adoptions turn out so great is

I am not a "Let's try and see person,take the dog home for the weekend
for a trial run!"

I am manic about my dogs not getting dumped again.that's why I am so
very very hard to get a dog from.

I am there for the people ALL the dog's life.
As with all dogs come problems,and if someone is panicking,and they have
someone to call,you can usually help them through it,and thus the dog is
not "dumped again"

So, I hope I answered your question.

I hope I was gentle : )
Paulette~

Feeling like "Moondancing" while listening to Van's  great new album,
"Back On Top" still the "Brown Eyed Girl"

 A dogs life is too short...
    Their only fault really...

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Terr » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


snip

Quote:

> >Most small dogs are the biters
> ><flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
> >or a fatality.

> My opinion on why this occurs is that people tolerate behavior in a
> Pom or a Chi that they would never tolerate in a GSD or other larger
> dog. A larger dog that bites people hard will be killed. A little dog
> that does so may just be laughed at.

While I agree with this completely, there's another ascpect here.
The most I ever got bit was from***er Spaniels. But then, I was
grooming
and***ers were the most common type of dog that came into the shop.
So , since I was exposed to that breed most often in there, it was only
natural that the bite incidence would be higher.
Terri

Who decided rather quickly she would never, ever get an American***er
Spaniel.

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by K9 D » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
>>>Most small dogs are the biters

<flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
or a fatality. <<

"Would someone get the  bad-ass GSD out of his run and bring him over here?"

"Sure"

"Would someone go get the Chihuahua"

"ummm...I'm busy now"
" please don't make me go in that run ... pleeeeeeze"
"can't someone else get him?"
"we gotta catch pole around here??"

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Elaine Gallan » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>I have been reading several threads about dogs biting kids. And I believe
it
>was Paulette that said most bites are not really bites.  To me , a bite
>breaks the skin and a "snap" is what most people call a bite.

 A snap is a bite that does not connect. It's called a snap because of the
sound it makes when the dog makes a grab for a person, misses, and the jaws
snap together. The miss might be intentional or accidental, but it's still a
bite that doesn't connect.
 A snap is certainly a dog biting AT someone. If it keeps biting at people,
eventually, one of the bites will connect.
 Of course, then you go into the severity of the bites, or amount if any
inhibition involved. If the skin wasn't broken, that would indicates some
bite inhibition, but it's still a bite. Of course you get your big, meaty,
lusty bites, but once the dog is testing your kid's skin, it's all splitting
hairs.

Quote:
>The dogs teeth
>make contact but not "drawing ***."  Now , that said I would still have a
>problem with a large dog that showed a habit of snapping at kids.  Would a
>pattern of snapping not indicate a potential of child aggressiveness <if it
>was a child being snapped>?

 Actually, aggression toward kids and other family members follows a
progression. It might start with the dog getting territorial. Over space,
bones, toys, food, dishes. Dog starts growling and that can escalate into
aggressivness scary enough that the family no longer wants the dog.

Quote:
> And how could that be "trained out" or could
>it?  I am referring to the larger dogs.

 I could believe in re-training bad dogs up to the point where they're
actively taking bites out of family members.
 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Kim » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


You were very nice. :)))

Several of the emails that I am on have been having this discussion and so
is one of the rescue groups that I am a volunteer.  I agree that the kids
need to be protected at all costs.  And I don't think that a big dog (gawd ,
I am being sooo vauge) should ever be the opportunity to see if the child
problem is over.  One of the posters on the email list is trying to "train
out" the child aggressiveness from a dog that weighs over 100# and has a
history of lungeing (sp) and going after kids.  That is a lawsuit waiting to
happen.

kim

ps. Paulette , what area of our world are you and can I come back as one of
your rescues?


I hope I was gentle : )
Paulette~

Feeling like "Moondancing" while listening to Van's  great new album,
"Back On Top" still the "Brown Eyed Girl"

A dogs life is too short...
    Their only fault really...

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Kim » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


ROTFLMAO!!!

kim

Quote:

>>>>Most small dogs are the biters
><flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
>or a fatality. <<

>"Would someone get the  bad-ass GSD out of his run and bring him over
here?"

>"Sure"

>"Would someone go get the Chihuahua"

>"ummm...I'm busy now"
>" please don't make me go in that run ... pleeeeeeze"
>"can't someone else get him?"
>"we gotta catch pole around here??"

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Elaine Gallan » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>ROTFLMAO!!!

 Huh huh.... it WAS funny.
Quote:

>kim

>>>>>Most small dogs are the biters
>><flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent
damage
>>or a fatality. <<

>>"Would someone get the  bad-ass GSD out of his run and bring him over
>here?"

>>"Sure"

>>"Would someone go get the Chihuahua"

>>"ummm...I'm busy now"
>>" please don't make me go in that run ... pleeeeeeze"
>>"can't someone else get him?"
>>"we gotta catch pole around here??"

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Elaine Gallan » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>You were very nice. :)))

>Several of the emails that I am on have been having this discussion and so
>is one of the rescue groups that I am a volunteer.  I agree that the kids
>need to be protected at all costs.  And I don't think that a big dog (gawd
,
>I am being sooo vauge) should ever be the opportunity to see if the child
>problem is over.  One of the posters on the email list is trying to "train
>out" the child aggressiveness from a dog that weighs over 100# and has a
>history of lungeing (sp) and going after kids.  That is a lawsuit waiting
to
>happen.

 Depending an irate parent, it could just as easily be a kneecapping waiting
to happen.
 I believe that I would get mad enough to do some serious damage if their
dog put my kid in the hospital. Especially if it came out later that they
knew the dog to be child aggressive.
Quote:
>kim

>ps. Paulette , what area of our world are you and can I come back as one of
>your rescues?



>I hope I was gentle : )
>Paulette~

>Feeling like "Moondancing" while listening to Van's  great new album,
>"Back On Top" still the "Brown Eyed Girl"

>A dogs life is too short...
>    Their only fault really...

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Lynn Kosmako » Mon, 31 May 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> "Would someone get the  bad-ass GSD out of his run and bring him over here?"

I'll see your bad-ass GSD and raise ya 2 Chihuahuas.
- I fold.

Lynn K.

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Emil » Mon, 31 May 1999 04:00:00


do people accept gentle chin/ear love nibbles from their dogs?  or is it a
bad idea to allow this, as
it could escalate into something more serious (if only unintentially)?

Emily


Quote:

> I have been reading several threads about dogs biting kids. And I believe it
> was Paulette that said most bites are not really bites.  To me , a bite
> breaks the skin and a "snap" is what most people call a bite. The dogs teeth
> make contact but not "drawing ***."  Now , that said I would still have a
> problem with a large dog that showed a habit of snapping at kids.  Would a
> pattern of snapping not indicate a potential of child aggressiveness <if it
> was a child being snapped>?  And how could that be "trained out" or could
> it?  I am referring to the larger dogs.  Most small dogs are the biters
> <flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent damage
> or a fatality.  And to those of you doing legitimate rescue, do you have
> adopters sign a contract that has a special amendment concerning adopting a
> "not good with kids dog"?

> Be gentle with me.

> kim

 
 
 

When is a bite not a bite

Post by Elaine Gallan » Mon, 31 May 1999 04:00:00


 I don't have a problem with gentle nibbling or even grasping  the owners
with the mouth. If it's ok by the owner, it's ok.
 No, I do not see this as escalating into anything bad. One of my dogs used
to grasp me by the wrist and lead me to the door when he wanted to go out.
This seemed hilarious to me.

Quote:

>do people accept gentle chin/ear love nibbles from their dogs?  or is it a
>bad idea to allow this, as
>it could escalate into something more serious (if only unintentially)?

>Emily



>> I have been reading several threads about dogs biting kids. And I believe
it
>> was Paulette that said most bites are not really bites.  To me , a bite
>> breaks the skin and a "snap" is what most people call a bite. The dogs
teeth
>> make contact but not "drawing ***."  Now , that said I would still have
a
>> problem with a large dog that showed a habit of snapping at kids.  Would
a
>> pattern of snapping not indicate a potential of child aggressiveness <if
it
>> was a child being snapped>?  And how could that be "trained out" or could
>> it?  I am referring to the larger dogs.  Most small dogs are the biters
>> <flame suit on> but most don't have the potential to cause permanent
damage
>> or a fatality.  And to those of you doing legitimate rescue, do you have
>> adopters sign a contract that has a special amendment concerning adopting
a
>> "not good with kids dog"?

>> Be gentle with me.

>> kim