Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

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Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 25 May 2003 11:52:12


>   Yanno, I think you nailed right there, in your parentheses, why I have
> such a different perspective on the situation. Unfortunately, most of the
> people I see using GLs- again, aside from at agility- don't fit the
> of "intelligent with gentle hands".

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her,
Said "GRRRR!" And Nipped Her Ear," sionnach, Dog Lover, Trainer.


> >The dog's only 15 months old, already doesn't trust you, and you
> > think it's _the dog's_ problem -- even though you've yelled
> > at him, isolated him, and are now thinking of beating him with
> > a shoe. The fact that you think that'll work says a lot.
>    Er, just as a matter of fairness-

Yes, sinofa***. You always like to be fair when you HURT a dog, don't
you? THAT'S the difference between a dog trainer and a dog abuser...

> while I agree with a lot of what you say,

You cannot prevent yourself from defending dog abusers.

> the OP did NOT say s/he was going to beat the dog with a shoe;

But of course. You'd never condone stuff like just throwing a dog down
to the ground and biting the dog on the ear to train him. Unless it was
in the context of an impromptu lesson... Correct me if I'm wrong.

> as far as I can tell,

That's a good point. You can't seem to tell the difference between
jerking and *** and shocking and alpha rolling and biting a dog in
the context of a lesson, Vs those actions for no apparently good reason.
That's because there IS NO good excuse for such actions under ANY
circumstances. Hurting dogs in a lesson is FAIR? O.K. But hurting dogs
for PLEASURE is verbotten?

Hmm. Sounds like you've gone to the freaky frantik fraudreck and lying
"I LOVE KOEHLER" school of lying, dog abusing THUGS.

Can't you see yourself for what you are? OF COURSE YOU DO!

That's why you HURT dogs, and LIE about it. You've EARNED the title
LYING infront of your name. You are a liar, because you HURT dogs to
train them, although you say you do not.

> s/he simply mis-spelled the word "shoo". (As in yell at and
> chase, which isn't a good idea, but not quite the same as hitting the
> dog.)

Oh? What's the difference between "alpha rolling" and BITING a dog on
the ear, and HITTING him? Is there any difference in your brands of


You're a lying, dog abusing THUG:

>  Um, go back and read the entire post. In the preceding paragraph,
> he said: "i shouted like crazy and chased him under a table and he
> bit me when i tried to shoe him away."
> You CANNOT **force** a terrier to do anything,

Right. A dog suddenly ISN'T a dog. HOWE come you can FORCE
every other dog by shocking and twisting his ears and toes and
beating them with sticks, up till now all of a freakin sudden?

> and fighting with them will get you in serious trouble.

Excellent. Tell us HOWE to take that firm, no nonesense approach???

> But you also cannot allow them to think they're in charge of you.


>  To give you an example of what I mean by "not letting a terrier pup
> get away with things":   First day I had my JRT home (at that point,
> she weighed just under five pounds <g>),

Still small enough to chin cuff (which abslutely does not mean slap,
according to professora gingold) and scruff shake according to our
behaviorist professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer.

> I played tug with her with a fuzzy toy.

Yeah? Stop playing tug with my fuzzy toy.

> After a bit, she got e***d, and tried to take it away from me by
> growling and pouncing/grabbing at my hand.

Excellent training...

> The indulgent sort of owner (as I suspect the OP initially was)
> would go "Aw, isn't that cute!" and give the toy. The over-
> reacting/ignorant sort of owner

Like you?

> (as the OP is now) would punish the pup by yelling, smacking,
> chasing, rolling her over, etc.

I see. So, you've taken in an abused and mishandled dog owned by
ignorant overreacting hurt and confront till the puppy is
"trained." And then you'll show them HOWE to hurt and confront the
puppy PROPERLY???

> The "make like a tree" thing (my usual response to leash-pulling)
> didn't work;

FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual, becauase it does NOT
work CONSISTANTLY. That's found in dr dunbar's "excellent" work...

> yes, I could keep her from taking off,

By forcing and HURTING her.

> but instead of figuring out that she needed to try a different
> behaviour, and giving me something to praise,

You mean BITING HER?

> she increased the behaviour.

Oy! If you weren't so freaking disgusting, I'd give up and go over to a
group where people love and respect the dogs they're working with.

> Nor did any attempts at verbal distraction work;

"Verbal distraction?" You mean screaming NO and threatening the dog.

> she was *determined* that she was going to yank the leash
> out of my hand and bolt down the trail after other dogs.

Nothing of the sort. Your efforts to force control triggers the
opposition reflex, positive thigmotaxis, and COMPELLS THE DOG TO PULL.

This is NOT a conscious activity. It's strictly REFLEXIVE. It's as
unthinking in the dog as all of your methods are to me. They're
simply reflexing to condtions of their situation that you in your
abyss of wisdom can't figure out even when I show you HOWE and
explain WHY your methods defeat your puporse.

>   When it was obvious that she had NO intention of paying any
> attention to anything but the other dogs


> (and that I was in danger of having my arm dislocated <G>),

Yes, and that scares you and justifies HURTING and

> I didn't even think about it;


> I dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> grabbed her opposite foot with my left hand, rolled her on her side,
> leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear

BUT YOU DON'T ABUSE DOGS, do you, you miserable double
talking hippocrite.

> (not particularly hard-

Oh, but OF COURSE we never HURT a dog. Their EARS are the
toughest part of the dog's anatomy. That's why your pals need to
pinch them ears between a large coin and a shot shell or a prong in
your collar.

> I wasn't trying to *hurt* her, just

No, not hurt. Not you, you're too little to HURT a dog. And you're too
little to intmiidate a dog. And you're a dog LOVER, so hurting and
intimidating dogs is not in YOUR repertoire of behaviors, IS IT,

> get her attention!).

Oh, because your "TRAINING METHODS" didn't??? Again? Still?

>  Whole thing took less than a second-

Yup. You can destroy trust and bonding in LESS than just one second.

> I immediately released her, and she jumped up, wagging her tail,

FEAR THAT WAGS THE TAIL and makes your dogs SEEM to be
happily e***d to go out with your for another dose of ABUSE.

Subject: Whisper .... we won't tell your dogs ...."I Dropped The Leash,
Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With
My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Said "GRRRR!" And
Nipped Her Ear," sionnach, Dog Lover, Trainer

Date: 2002-04-03 11:30:42 PST


> > Chris Williams wrote
> > >   What's the last dog to steal your heart and make you think, "If only
> > > ..."?
> > >   Met a Weim at the dog-park this morning who is everything I cherish.
> > > Stella is so alert, penetrating, inventive, sweet,
> > > .. so ..............
>     Last time I *really* fell in love with another dog?? Well, a friend of
> mine showed up on the hiking trails with an eight-week-old JRT...  cute,
> problem-solving intelligent, athletic, driven, nice temperament, etc.
> etc.... I *coveted* that pup!
>    Four weeks later, her owner asked me if I would consider taking her.
> "You don't have to answer now" she said, "take as long as you like to
> about it."  The rest, as they say, was history. <G>

You cheated your "friend" out of their dog because you didn't have the
training INFORMATION they needed.

Hello you miserable lying sinofa***,

For two years now you've been calling me a liar and con man and telling
folks not to believe me, that you're not a dog abuser and liar.

Well, that was THEN, and THIS is NOW. We got proof that you do EXACTLY
what I've been saying, and you've been DENYING. KNOW WHAT?

That makes YOU, A PROVEN LIAR, just like lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, lying
dahl, lying doc "scruff shake" dermer, and professora "chin cuff
absolutely does not mean slap" gingold.

Congratulations on earning your lying title, you lying sinofa***.


Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 25 May 2003 12:56:44

HOWEDY melanie,


> :   Yanno, I think you nailed right there, in your parentheses,
> : why I have such a different perspective on the situation.
> : Unfortunately, most of the people I see using GLs- again,
> : aside from at agility- don't fit the category
> : of "intelligent with gentle hands".

> I'm not interested in debating the rest of your post,
> because we clearly are never going to agree on this
> issue and I am not interested in doing that all over again.

> Here, though, I think the important point is that to have
> a useful  conversation at all, we have to distinguish between
> correct and incorrect use.  Nearly all of the objections (most
> without any data to back them up) that people give regarding
> headcollars involve improper use.  It is simply not productive
> to compare collars unless we are assuming proper
> use of all of them.
> Otherwise, we're having a complete different discussion.
> I simply think it is important to provide a counterpoint to the
> anti-headcollar contingent, because headcollars are useful
> tools and the claims made against them are both hysterical
> and frightening to naive owners.

That so? You're abHOWET as misinformed and
naive as can be... This'll straighten you HOWET:

Subject: Gentle Leader / Halti - JERRYIZED + ONE
Always Right

Date: 2002-06-06 07:17:06 PST

Hello People,

There's too much doubletalk. YOU ain't gonna figure
out the head halter issues. I've gone through most of
what's available on the WWW about the devices, and
all I can come up with is the BOTTOM LINE:

Our "experts" are full of ***all around.

The following excerpts will show the faulty THINKING
involved with misuse both intentional and unintentional
by the experts who teach us to force, hurt and kill our
best dogs.

The sources of the quotes below vary and are generally
accepted, so the individuals making their observations
are not pertinent unless the truths or falsity of their
conclusions are obvious and the sources specified.
The info comes from the manufacturer's, trainers, and
users. Most of it is NOT CREDIBLE when their methods
are analyzed.

From the Halti web site:

"Properly fitted and introduced, head halters can prevent
pulling and shape more desirable behaviors. Using a
head halter is a new experience for most dog handlers.

Unlike the snap of a choke-chain, the head halter is most
effective when used gently and subtly. Strength is not a factor, making  It
is highly recommended that your dog be fitted
and you be trained in proper usage by a professional trainer.

The halter is particularly appropriate for restraining and
retraining dogs with aggression problems, especially dogs
who lunge at people or other dogs. When used properly in
conjunction with positive reinforcers such as treats, alternate
behaviors (such as "look at me") become more rewarding than
acting out towards other dogs or people."


That's the bottom line, People. The objective of the halter
is not to FORCE control, but to gently redirect the dog, not
"GUIDE" him by force as most of our dog lovers PREFER
to do. Unfortunately, they themselves have deviated from
the original intent of the K-9 Kum Along. sez:

? There are two basic designs of head halters for dogs.
? The first is the Gentle Leader, designed by Dr. R.K.
? Anderson, a veterinarian,


? and Ruth Foster, a long time obedience instructor.

Refers to NADOI, another bunch of Thugs...

? The Gentle Leader consists of a regular collar, with
? a loose fitting nose loop that allows you to clip the
? leash under the dog's chin.

To manhandle the dog into position or submission.

? The other major brand of head halter is the Halti,
? designed by Dr. Roger Mugford, also a veterinarian.

Who someHOWE ripped off the originator of the K-9 Kum
Along, Dr. Alice DeGroote, a veterinarian who beat Jerry
to the punch with her excellent device. The K-9 Kum Along
was not intended to force or fight the dog, it's intended to
gently redirect while occasionally stimulating the pressure
points on the muzzle to trigger the natural calming effect.

?  The Halti is an integrated collar/nose loop that includes
? cheek straps to hold the nose loop in place.

Yes, because the OBJECTIVE is NOT to force, just apply intermittent
momentary pressure on the nose strap to
trigger the points to calm the dog, not fight him into submission.

? Each type works well as a way of controlling a dog.

No. Each type is intended for different PREFERENCES
of training a dog.

? The Gentle Leader comes in three sizes and is very
? adaptable to the different
? shapes and sizes of various dog breeds.

The GL is designed by the nadoi and vet guy above,
to force control through leverage and intimidation.

? The Halti comes in five sizes. Because of the integrated
? design, the fit of the collar is not very adjustable.

Because it's not necessary to FORCE CONTROL when
used as intended.

? On the strength side of the coin,


? the Gentle Leader comes out on top.

According to our nadoi and veterinary behavior experts
who were not satisfied not forcing and not intimidating
dogs with the kum along...

They NEED MOORE control, cause they only know
FORCE the dog.

> I once used the two collars, side by side on two ***
> Newfoundlands, who had a history of serious aggression.
> The cheek strap on the Halti blew out,

Because the nitwit was jerking and forcing the dog
instead of training him.

> leaving me with one hand holding the leash of a
> very controlled dog on the Gentle leader,

By forcing the dog which we already know is

> and the other hand, holding a leash connected
> to an empty collar.


> When a Halti disintegrates,

Because of abuse by the force trainer.

I'm not sure of the design flaws Dr. Mugford has in his head
halter, but I have discussed the K-9 Kum Along in depth with
it's originator Dr. Alice DeGroote and advised her of my
observations and considerations, some of which she promptly
incorporated into her design.

Specifically, the "break away" problem and the 'feel' of the device
on the face, i.e.. the points it is intended to stimulate. A minor
OVERSIGHT of our nadoi and veterinary *** fans,
and a COMPLAINT mentioned by our own Master Of Deception
blankman, just the other day.

? the dog is easily capable of slipping out of whatever remains.
? In more than eight years of using Gentle Leaders, with dog
? as big as 200 pound Mastiffs, I have never known of
? one to break.

Which is EXACTLY why we don't do that when we're
TRAINING a dog, instead of FORCING IT.

? Head halters are not for everyone.

Obviously, our experts aren't bright enough to use them as intended, hence
the different designs reflecting the different training approaches.

? When improperly introduced, dogs can associate
? negatively with a halter.

The K-9 Kum Along has NEVER taken me MOORE
than fif*** minutes to accustom the dog to enjoying it.
That's because we aren't FORCING. The OBJECTIVE
is to allow the dog the freedom to move, not force him
to move.

We DON'T WANT to force control, we want to force
LEARNING by giving freedom and encouragement.

A nitwit on sez:

"I truly am a head harness convert, but the negatives
of the product do have to be addressed. For us, the
biggest weakness of the Halti is that it can come off
if the dog struggles wildly (which Carter is prone to
do when faced with a squirrel or other animated
being on four legs.)

To counter-act that, for the first few walks we used
two leashes - the shorter, training leash on the Halti
and the longer leash on his collar.

The first few walks we corrected exclusively with the Halti."


Nuff said by an amateur. I've got a expert I'll crucify
comin up below...


Here's some pretty good advice:

lynn richards writes in

 > Spend at least one to two weeks acclimating your
 > dog to the Halti or Gentle Leader collar. Remember
 > the rule that only POSITIVE things must happen
 > in relation to introducing new things to your dog.

Excellent advice, and absolutely necessary for the
shock collar dog abusers.

> ? (Read my crate training article please.)

And then she craps the bed on us as per usual... tsk, tsk.
 The miserable state of the art of dog training. Sad.

BE AFRAID, People. Be VERY afraid. We hurt and
kill our best dogs because we don't know or care
enough to know HOWE to outwit the cunning of
the domestic puppy dog.


Here's the problem with the head halters OR
ANYTHING used as a force training device,
EVIDENCED by mugford and the nadoi cretin
and her veterinary behavior "expert" above.

? The Halti Collar or GL must fit snugly, only one
? finger should be able to fit under the portion of
? the collar that snaps or buckles behind the ears.
? The nose portion of the halter should NOT lie
? closer than ? inch to the eyes. On a GL the clip
? should be tightened up under the chin, so that
? again, the one finger fits in.

Well, what the heel do you expect, other than the
dog is gonna resist the pressure?

It's called positive thigmotaxis, the opposition reflex.

Use your heads, People.

> The Halti self adjusts IF you buy the correct size

I dunno. Seems like it likes to fall apart, according
to one "expert."

? The "Gentle Leader" head collar, formerly known
? as the "Promise Collar"?

The worst offender. NO WONDER it's the choice
of our dog lovers. I've had experience using this
device, and found it suitable, when worn LOOSELY
and not forced, as intended by the K-9 Kum Along.


Another novice nit wit sez:

" Then we got the Gentle Leader. Stella wasn't too
 keen on it

read more »


Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 25 May 2003 13:18:16

HOWEDY sinofa***,

You hurt dogs and lie abHOWET it.

You can't post here noMOORE.

The Puppy Wizzzard. <};~ )  >


> "Melanie L Chang"

> >   It is
> > simply not productive to compare collars unless we are assuming proper
> > use of all of them.

>   I disagree. I think it is VERY important, when discussing pros and cons
> training collars on a public forum, to discuss all aspects of them- both
> what is good about them, and the problems that can occur with them.
>   The plain fact of the matter is that most people - including people who
> read these groups, and go out and buy training devices based on what they
> read here- are *not* highly skilled trainers; they just want to be able to
> take their dog for a walk.
>   They should be aware of *all* the aspects of the training tools they are
> considering.

> > I simply think it is important to provide a counterpoint to the
> > anti-headcollar contingent, because headcollars are useful tools and the
> > claims made against them are both hysterical and frightening to naive
> >owners.

>  <shrug>
>    And I think it important to provide a counterpoint to the idea that
> headcollars are the only "humane" tool out there, that they are "humane"
> all dogs, and that they are safe and effective for all dogs. That sort of
> marketing is exactly why I'm seeing more and more dogs dragging their
> around on headcollars.
>   The fact that I say "head collars can do harm" and "for some dogs, head
> collars are cruel and prong collars are humane" does NOT mean that I'm
> "anti-headcollar" or "pro-prong". It means that I think people should have
> *all* the information available.

>     I'm not being "anti-flat collar" when I talk about the Toller who got
> killed on one, or other dogs I've seen have injuries from them (like
> tracheal damage from pulling); I'm not being "anti-Ecollar" when I talk
> about the dogs I saw made aggressive by the use of one; and I'm not being
> "anti-headcollar" when I talk about both the acute and long-term problems
> that can occur with the use of the GL and similar devices.


Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Mon, 26 May 2003 07:34:58


> > I have never used any of these for training,

That's cause you've never trained a dog before.

> > but would like to see some
> > discussion as to the PROPER
> > and ethical uses of such devices

There is no ETHICAL way HOWE to
HURT a dog to train them.

> > for dog training.

HOWER dog lovers HURT and KILL
dogs because they don't have the
INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning
of the domestic puppy dog.

> You're asking questions that are really
> too complex to be answered in a
> newsgroup post.

That so? Maybe if you snip crossposts
and claim you killfiled The Puppy Wizzzard
you'd SIMPLIFY things and be able to just
make up lies?

> A small training manual could be
> written for everykind of training
> collar and head halter,

The objective is to SIMPLIFY the problem.

> and someone who read those
> manuals could still not understand
> or be able to use them properly.

RIGHT. But that's not the problem. The
problem is, you HURT dogs cause you
either don't know HOWE to train a dog
withHOWEt HURTIN him, or it's cause
that won't subordinate themselves to
your abuse.

That's the top 10% of HOWER dogs,
DEAD, right off the bat on account of

> Add to that the differences in handlers,

The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students

"They all sound the same, just like Jerry wrote
them himself," sez your lying dog abusing Punk
Thug Coward pal janet boss.

> and there's really no way to say
> which tool is best for common situations.

The Puppy Wizzzard gets 100% success,
nearly instantly.  You call The Puppy Wizzzard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Students LIARS and PAID SHILLS

> Head halters are most useful for an
> untrained dog that pulls too much

HOWE you control the dog is irrelevant
if you're not physically restraining or
bribing or intimidating him.

The Puppy Wizzzard will wager $100.00
he can train any dog to heel sit and stay
in 5 minutes flat withHOWET hurting
bribing or intimidating him.

> on the leash for the owner to walk safely.

It's your FEAR that causes you to mishandle
the lead and trigger the dog to pull. All
behavior problems are caused by mishandling.

> They cannot be used for a correction,

Yeah. That's HOWE COME dog lovers
like you won't use them, cause you CAN'T
HURT the dog with them.

> are useless if not fitted or used properly,


> and are very limited in use -

You mean, cause when they're fitted
pupperly YOU CAN'T HURT the dog
with them.

> I can't think of anything to use them for

Well, to force control you won't be able
to really hurt the dog, so forget abHOWET it.

> except a pulling dog and for a dog
> reactive dog

Oh? Sounds contradictory already..
What are you sayin? They're good
for breaking pulling but not makin
a dog sit?

> (GL only)

The GL is a neck twister device that
hurts and intimidates and will throw
the dog assoverbucket if the handler
wants to IMPRESS the dog.

> and formal attention corrections

You mean, gentle jerking to make
the dog wary enough of you to keep
his eyes on you like your pal FRAUDreck
and his national association of protection
dogs chumpion Maddy who won't take
her eyes off of him even to protect him
cause she'll get shocked.


> (Halti only).

That'd have to be on account of on
the GL you would HURT the dog with
you'd use on the head halter.

> They really aren't training tools because
> of that limitation.

They really aren't training tools because
they're pain fear force and intimidation
devices that have a DEVASTATING
effect on a dog's TRUST and CONFIDENCE
in his handler's ability to protect him.

> brands work differently and those
> differences affect their usefulness.



>  I use them


> (as I do every kind of collar)

Of curse! You'll DO ANYTHING to
SAVE a dog from the needle... if
you got the time to WASTE on an
aggressive dog when there's so
you could HELLP with your jerking
and *** and shocking and beating
and pinching and twisting.

> but also think that they are the most
> misused and abusive when misused
> of all the tools.

That so? The Puppy Wizzzard ain't
interested in classifying degrees of
abuse. The abuse starts with the first
thought of physically forcing bribing
or intimidating a dog to do what you
don't have the INTELLECT to MAKE

> I prefer a prong for my own dog,

Your selectively bred, hand picked and
tested sar dog Jive?

> and put one on him every 12 to 18
> months when he is learning a specific
> new behavior

Yeah? Takes you 12-18 months to
train a new behavior? What behavior
is that, HOWE to FLUNK SAR work?

> and I need to be able to give him a correction

You mean, when you WANT to HURT him.

> to signal that he is about to make a
> wrong choice.

Yeah. That's what INHIBITS the dog's DRIVE
to work for you... that's HOWE COME your
SAR dog Jive won't SAR.

> But my preference for a prong over
> a ***chain or electronic collar to
> give that signal

You mean HURT the dog.

> is based on my own handling

You're a dog abuser, lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn.

> and my dog's responses.

Lookey at your SAR dog JIVE.

> It is impossible to make generalizations

It'd be FOOLISH. Dogs do not train
according to scientific and psychological
conditioning techniques. The Puppy
Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual Student's
ARE LIARS just like you, eh?

>about what works best for another dog/handler.

The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students
get 100% TOTAL non physical control NEARLY

> Lynn K.

You're a proven liar and dog abuser and
you can't post here noMOORE. Let's talk

The Puppy Wizzzard. <};~ ) >

"I Got To Tell You His Amazing Progress
Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level
Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who
Call Themselves Trainers," Kay Pierce, Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

 > Hi Jerry, Send the post to whom ever you
 > wish to. Believe me I will keep you updated.
 > I got to tell you His amazing progress almost
 > makes me cry.

 > Kay Pierce

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

 > Jerry,

 > I started Hunter on his training using your
 > manual and training method.

 > What a marked difference in just a few hours.
 > I had him in my van and just using the sound
 > with his remote trainer and telling him he's a
 > good dog when he started looking like he was
 > going to bark at a car worked great.

 > He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him
 > to a spot that we had used years ago to train,
 > Jerry I have hope that I can have my happy
 > dog back soon. And  not this tense unhappy
 > creature I live with now.

 > He was so happy today. I am looking forward
 > to getting the machine so that he can stay
 > that way.

 > Thank you, Kay Pierce

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress

 > Hello Jerry, Hunter and I started working
 > the recall and family pack exercise today.
 > On leash and in the house he has a perfect
 > recall.

 > And I think he really started to relax and
 > enjoy himself I swear he was laughing.

 > I had taught him to go to  the heel position
 > when he comes to me years ago. And over
 > the past few months I have had to tell him
 > to go there.

 > Today he flew into the heel position each
 > and every time without me saying a word
 > to him about it. He has never bounced like
 > that before.

 > I trained him using conventional methods
 > with a choker and pinch collar. Over the
 > past few days we have been using his
 > regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it
 > more.

 > As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer
 > and when I trained my latest dog I used
 > all positive reinforcements techniques.

 > When I trained for that I had been amazed
 > at the results.

 > Your method takes positive training to the
 > next level and should really be used by all
 > trainers who call themselves trainers.

 > My Hunter is concentrating on me and not
 > on the treat he thinks he wants. My other
 > dog wants treats before she'll do anything.

 > As soon as I get Hunter straightened out
 > she's next.

 > Thank you so much, Kay Pierce


----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Minor setback


 > Hi Jerry, I think I had a minor setback
 > today with Hunter.

No problem. We can fix it. Some "setbacks"
are anticipated.

 > We were trying to do the heel the way it
 > is outlined in your manual.

Yes, it's not an EZ exercise, and it takes
 three or four short sessions to get the feel
 for it. If it's confusing, that's GOOD. It's
 supposed to feel "wrong" till you "get it
 right" and then you'll know what you're
 striving for. It'll come to you, just let it.

 > I had done something wrong my poor
 > boy was getting awfully confused.

As stated. No problem. Confusion is good,
means they're thinking.

He's probably got a lot to think about since
your methods have changed. I expect dogs
like this to "stall" and not work for a few
sessions too, don't worry about it.


read more »


Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by Katr » Mon, 26 May 2003 09:55:59



> HOWE you control the dog is irrelevant
> if you're not physically restraining or
> bribing or intimidating him.

> The Puppy Wizzzard will wager $100.00
> he can train any dog to heel sit and stay
> in 5 minutes flat withHOWET hurting
> bribing or intimidating him.

<more mega-snipped>

I'll take you up on that wager...
Come here and train my neighbors rottweilers Lady and
Bear, and the two Chow/Lab mixes that I am boarding
for a friend that has fallen on hard times..., Ferocious
and Ebony.

I'd be happy to pay you $100.00 to do it plus bus
fare to central Texas, providing you can work with Lynne
on the Rottie's so she can do it too. Teach her not to
be afraid of them?

Can you put your time where your mouth is?



Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Mon, 26 May 2003 16:29:13

HOWEDY katra,


> <mega-snipped>

> > HOWE you control the dog is irrelevant
> > if you're not physically restraining or
> > bribing or intimidating him.

> > The Puppy Wizzzard will wager $100.00
> > he can train any dog to heel sit and stay
> > in 5 minutes flat withHOWET hurting
> > bribing or intimidating him.

> <more mega-snipped>

> I'll take you up on that wager...

That doesn't mean you'll be able
to do likeWIZE. You got to learn
HOWE, and you ain't gonna learn
Wizzzard cause you got to
and be able to do likeWIZE
withHOWEt thinkin abHOWET it.

> Come here and train my neighbors

The Puppy Wizzzard specializes in
trainin problem dogs all over the Whole
Wild World from sittin right here stark
ravin nekkid.

> rottweilers Lady and Bear, and the
> two Chow/Lab mixes that I am boarding
> for a friend that has fallen on hard times...,
> Ferocious and Ebony.

That's nice of you. The Puppy Wizzzard
will teach you HOWE to do that yourself
EZ, nearly instantly... for FREE.

> I'd be happy to pay you $100.00 to do it

The Puppy Wizzzard doesn't work for hire.

> plus bus fare to central Texas, providing
> you can work with Lynne on the Rottie's
> so she can do it too.

The Puppy Wizzzard would consider
that if HE fails to train you and Lynne
from sittin right here, stark ravin nekkid.

Training dogs is EZ if you know HOWE.
The methods in The Puppy Wizzzard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method work like freaking MAGICK,
but you got to follow the instructions

The method is so precise The Puppy
Wizzzard can predict your dogs next
move and tell you your mistake based
on your last move and show you HOWE
to confound every move your dog tries
to do to take advantage of you... and
make the dog think HE is doin what HE
is supposed to be doin cause that's his

> Teach her not to be afraid of them?

That'll be EZ once she UNDERTSANDS.
She'll be able to use the same same same
same exercises to control her own fears as
The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual teaches
you to use for your dog's fears.

> Can you put your time where your mouth is?

The Puppy Wizzzard is available 24/7.

- Show quoted text -

> K.
> -----Original Message-----

> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.

> Subject: Jerry Howe

> Hi,
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe

> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.

> His methods are the best I have come across. They
> aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
> you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother.  If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.

> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what  you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.

> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.

> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.

> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.

> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.

> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.

> Paul Bousie


Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST

It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.

My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz***s up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls

I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed
with immediate praise. It worked a treat.

The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is
food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go
out and leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.


Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....

Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!


> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.

> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.

> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.

> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.

> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?

> Paul


Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with
your training manual! My two mutts have gone from
out-of-control psychos to obedient well behaved companions
within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the success
and have asked me to work on their dogs!

I was working with a 5 month old Ridgeback female today and
she was being an angel after like an hour of working with her!

I pity those fools who take their dogs to classes where the
"Trainers"abuse their dogs! (do they have a degree? A masters?
a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the street
who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.


> I've read over Jerry Howe's "Wit's End
> Dog Training Manual" now several times.
> And while everyone will get something a
> bit different from it, I found that his "hot &
> cold" exercise (first part of manual) is in
> my opinion the "key" to the entire thing.
> Once you have taught your dog (puppy)
> to keep an "eye on you", then the rest of
> its training (come, etc) becomes much
> easier.  Additionally Jerry does point
> out "why" dogs do the things that they
> do.  So even if you don't like Jerry's
> posts, you might like to download his
> manual (it's free, after all!) and give it
> a look over.  You might learn something.

> My Boston Terrier puppy would chew up the newspaper
> until I used the techniques in Jerry Howe's manual to
> train her not to do it.  Simple distraction and praise.
> You may not agree with all he says, but the manual
> is well worth reading even if you don't use all of it.

> Jerome Bigge
> NRA Life Member
> Supporter of National Health Insurance
> CompTIA A Certified Computer Technician
> Author of the "Warlady" & "Wartime" series.
> Download at ""


Hi, Jerry.

I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the ***
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's


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