Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

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Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Carol Levi » Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:53:10



Your post about desensitizing Finn was interesting. I'm using a similar method with Shayna, but have not been using a clicker. Instead, I've been using my voice ("watch me") with treats when she behaves appropriately. Of course, she tends to watch my hand or pocket...the source of those yummies...rather than my face, but at least she stops focusing on the other dog momentarily.

Here are my questions: if I've understood your method, you were using the clicker to get Finn's attention, correct? As opposed to the click signifying "you've already done something that I want so now you're about to get a treat?" Did you use the clicker for anything other than desensitizing Finn to other dogs? Did he ever learn to relax around other dogs or did he just learn to ignore them and focus on you? (I'd accept either with Shayna...I'm just curious about your results.) Did it ever progress to the point where you could stop using the clicker because he knew what he was supposed to do?

This sounds like something that would work with my dog. From agility classes, she knows what a clicker signifies...and she is _extremely_ food-oriented. We've made some progress. On a casual walk, her safety zone is now about 25 feet from a large dog (less, if the dog is very calm), and double that for a small dog. If we're training, we can get a little closer, but she is definitely not relaxed. I don't know how much more I can expect.

More detail, please?

Thanks,
Carol

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Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:31:29


HOWEDY carol,


Quote:
> Your post about desensitizing Finn was interesting.

Yeah, showed HOWE little tara knows about handling
and training dogs.

Quote:
> I'm using a similar method with Shayna,

Didn't you succeed with our ***y maida and his competitor
he sent you to?

Quote:
> but have not been using a clicker.

Forget about that damned clicker.

Quote:
> Instead, I've been using my voice

Duh-Oh!

Quote:
> ("watch me")

BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Quote:
> with treats

To feed your own ego.

Quote:
> when she behaves appropriately.

Isn't that nice. Then you diminish the treats? Or do you
continue to increase treats with improved behavior?

You ain't got no answer for that, do you carol? Look at
what you're doin. You tell the dog to watch you and treat
for good behavior. Then you discontinue the 'rewards?'
Or do you increase the reward?

Quote:
> Of course, she tends to watch my hand or pocket...

Cause you've taught her GREED, not understanding and
calmness.

Quote:
> the source of those yummies...

Competition?

Quote:
> rather than my face,

Your face shows her your fear and lies. She wants to hide
from that and everything else you tell her.

Quote:
> but at least she stops focusing on the other dog momentarily.

Yes, for a food bribe so the other dog doesn't get it from her.

Quote:
> Here are my questions:

Didn't ***y maida and his competitor train you and Shayna
to like other dogs and be safe and friendly?

Quote:
> if I've understood your method,

Like you understood ***y's methods? That was the pronged
spiked pinch ***collar, wasn't it carol? Did you advance to
the shock collar? Or did her turning on you for hurting her in
the presence of other dogs scare you away from HURTING
her someMOORE? Or did she pull you down and break your rib
before you got to that? See the thread "broken rib."

Quote:
> you were using the clicker to get Finn's attention, correct?

Brilliant. Of course, commanding the dog's attention takes
his thoughts TOO FAR AWAY from the problem you're training.

Quote:
> As opposed to the click signifying "you've already done
> something that I want so now you're about to get a treat?"

I'm not going to discuss the variety of ways the clicker cue is used.
You're clicker will never be effective as long as it's paired with food.

Quote:
> Did you use the clicker for anything other than desensitizing
> Finn to other dogs?

One has nuthin to do with the other.

Quote:
> Did he ever learn to relax around other dogs or did he just
>  learn to ignore them and focus on you?

This was a YEARS LONG project. The liklihood is the dog
would have got over his anxiety in that time anyHOWE
without the click cue.

I think the narcotics and pain he was in was moore responsible
for distracting him from the other dogs. The bad hip made him
not pull, and the diminished tension on his collar was what
cured the aggression.

Quote:
> (I'd accept either with Shayna...

You'll do ANYTHING to cure her aggression, except NOT HURT
HER someMOORE.

Quote:
> I'm just curious about your results.)

Birds of a feather.

Quote:
> Did it ever progress to the point where you could stop using
> the clicker because he knew what he was supposed to do?

The clicker doesn't teach situational learning or understanding,
it only cues an unthinking behavior.

Quote:
> This sounds like something that would work with my dog.

Our dog lovers fear dogs that think.

Quote:
> From agility classes, she knows what a clicker signifies...

Yeah? I can't imagine HOWE COME you'd need to click in
agility except on the table and that silly yellow paws line on
the gizmo. The teamwork alone, should cause the work to
flow flawlessly cause the dog is in such high gear working
with his partner, as in hunting... That's HOWE COME I can't
imagine youz guys twisting and pinching and shocking and
*** dogs to make them to their most favorite doggy jobs.

Quote:
> and she is _extremely_ food-oriented.

That's ridiculuous. That "food orientation" is greed and insecurity.

Quote:
> We've made some progress.

BWWWWWAAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!! See "broken rib."

Quote:
> On a casual walk,

Shayna bolted after a critter and broke you up, big time. That's
long after ***y maida and his competitor taught your dog to
turn on you for hurting her when she growled at other dogs,
EXACTLY as I TOLD YOU SO.

Quote:
> her safety zone is now about 25 feet from a large dog

EXACTLY.

Quote:
> (less, if the dog is very calm),

Amazing.

Quote:
> and double that for a small dog.

Doesn't that demonstrate her response is FEAR, not aggression?

Quote:
> If we're training, we can get a little closer,

Because she feels you're in control. Saying that, it's obvious
that when she's on lead on heel, she's not convinced you are
in control cause you're not issuing commands and threatening
her, as she's been forced to heel with your pain inflicting devices
till they're no longer meaningful. That means you've got to increase
the pressure. The pressure is already at MAXIMUM, that's HOWE
COME she's turned on you for hurting her in the presence of other
dogs, and that's HOWE COME she'll bolt and break your ribs,
unelss you're HYPERVIGILANT and prepared to HURT her TO
THE MAX.

Quote:
> but she is definitely not relaxed.

The problem is the trainer, NOT THE DOG.

Quote:
> I don't know how much more I can expect.

My student Valerie cured her dog/dog/handler/child
aggression in under three days, by learning HOWE
to handle the dog without pain and intimidation.

Nevyn cured his two *** fighing pit x kelpie ***es
in 23 days flat.

Quote:
> More detail, please?

All the information you need to know is in your FREE
copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.
Write me for the latest edition.

Quote:
> Thanks, Carol

Your trainer ***y maida offered to endors the FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual if I'd lay off of
exposing him "cause he's got to make a living."

Quote:
Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with your training
manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control psychos to obedient well
behaved companions within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the
success and have asked me to work on their dogs! I was working with a 5
month old Ridgeback female today and she was being an angel after like an
hour of working with her! it is AMAZING!! I pity those fools who take their
dogs to classes where the "Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a
degree? A masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the
street who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.

Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.

Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn

Nevyn says:
How are you?

Jerry says:
sup?

Nevyn says:
Oh nothing

Nevyn says:

My dogs are alot better now!

Jerry says:
fine

Jerry says:
tell me

Nevyn says:

dogs

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
Yup

Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?

Nevyn says:
No

Nevyn says:
Praised them

Jerry says:
ahh!

Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better

Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and
pours water on them

Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!

Nevyn says:
muahaha

Jerry says:
ok

Jerry says:
I'll go for that

Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you're
consistent

Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them

Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends

Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath

Nevyn says:
muahahaha

Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're suckin hind teat?

Nevyn says:
eh

Nevyn says:
nah

Nevyn says:
cant

Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin

Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it

Jerry says:
why not.

Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server

Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer
to see you ***and shock and lock your dogs in a box?

Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't already know,
huh?

Nevyn says:
hah

Nevyn says:
tell them they're ***ers who need to die

Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much

Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now

Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?

Nevyn says:
pfftt

Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training

Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual

Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!

Jerry says:
hhahahahaha

Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with EVERYTHING you're
wanting them to do?

Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.

Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass
off at him growling at his dogs???

Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Nevyn says:
LOL

Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!

Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune

=====================

Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into *** position when a
tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL

Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!

Nevyn says:
lol

Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything was in
your expert control.

Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------


Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST

Hello

I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler
(spots) x Kelpi (*** genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug
(don't laugh!).

They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and they are
friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously
*** over the other, and I don't have a problem with that,
however;

Their behaviour is ...

read more »

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 04:06:52


HOWEDY melanie,



Quote:
> I'm not Tara,

But you are a dog abuser like her.

Quote:
> but I've used the clicker to desensitize Solo to big scary
> men in a similar way.

You've been "training" Solo using ***, pain, fear, and force.

Quote:
> He used to turn and watch big guys (sometimes
> small guys) warily if they walked near us, walked past us,
> or we walked by them.  If the guy stopped and watched Solo,
> Solo would growl.

Imagine.

Quote:
> So I  started with Jean Donaldson's "bar's open/bar's closed" approach,

BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! You mean bribe the dog.

Quote:
> where I would just start giving Solo treats every time a guy came
> into the vicinity,

Dogs steal food and run hide with their backs to the wall in
a heightened state of alert... That's certainly not a state of
mind we want to entertain when we're trying to train a dog
to relax and trust.

Quote:
> and stop the second he was gone.

Imagine?

Quote:
> After a while of this Solo  stopped being so edgy around guys.

Sometimes it works. My methods work nearly instantly.

Quote:
> That's when I started to use the clicker -

Imagine? You didn't use the clicker when you beat your
dog Solo in the face with a shepherd's crook. You gave
your man shy fear aggressive dog to a strange trainer
to beat in the face for you for attacking sheep you were
molesting to exercise Solo so you could control his
OCD behaviors.

Quote:
> - I'd click when a guy came into the vicinity, -if- Solo wasn't
> doing anything.  So, Solo was being rewarded for the behavior
> I wanted,  which was to not do anything special around men.

Men scare you, melanie? That's what I think.

Quote:
> Eventually Solo learned to be introduced to men and I gave him a "do you
> want to say hi?" cue.  If he's comfortable with a guy, he'll go up to him
> and get a scratch on the head.

If he's not, he growls.

Quote:
> I click him for approaching appropriately, and then treat.

Wonderful. Sometimes it works, usually it doesn't becasue food
triggers other thoughts of insecurity and greed and stealing and
hiding and competition...

Quote:
> Solo now knows that meeting guys will get him treats.

You've managed to teach Solo greed.

Quote:
> Adding Fly was a big help because he'll go up and say hi to
> anyone she's saying hi to.

Because of allelomimetic behavior.

Quote:
> So, there's one way to use the clicker.

Yeah. As a food bribe alarm.

Quote:
> It can be difficult to use for desensitizing to other dogs because

Because you don't know HOWE to handle the dog.

Quote:
> sometimes the other dog is clicker-savvy,

The other dog is training your dog?

Quote:
> which generally makes them get even more in Solo's face
> than they were before.

That's absurd.

Quote:
> And it's truly amazing how fast other dogs will pick up on the
> clicker when they see it demonstrated with another dog.

Because of greed for the treat, competition, and all the
corresponding fears about food and security.

Quote:
> "Hey guys!  Every time she clicks, that dog gets TREATS!  Let's go!"

IDIOT. If your bribes don't work you beat and ***your dog.

Quote:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Melanie Lee Chang                        |  Form ever follows function.
>   Departments of Anthropology and Biology  |
>   University of Pennsylvania               |  -- Louis Sullivan

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a couple words from some of my students. Our "experts"
will tell you to killfile me because my ideas are dangerous... to
our "experts" miserable careers and false reputations.


Quote:
> I haven't quite finished reading the FREE Wits' End
> Dog Training Method manual, but it already worked
> miracles with our three dogs
> The barking at the door has diminished so much that,
> well, frankly, we're stunned.
> Anyway, your approach is amazing.
> Melisand

================

Quote:
> Hi, Jerry.
> I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
> with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
> manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
> reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
> the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
> different spots Darwin practically *threw* the ***
> ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
> (just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
> want to push and test me a little bit more).
> For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
> how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
> folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
> beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
> if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
> with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
> (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
> tho').
> Best, ben

================


Quote:
> I moved to Jacksonville, Florida about a year ago with my lovely wife

< snip horror story >

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> Listen to this...My wife wrote one of the so called know it all of
> pets. His response to the exact letter we initially wrote to
> Jerry..."Get rid of the dog, bring her back" I'll save this person
> embarrassment by not saying the name. However, you know who you are
> and I have this to say to you. Go pump gas or bus tables because you
> sir, do not belong working with animals!
> Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news group, I can't
> for the life of me understand why this many people are so dang blind
> or ignorant.
>  You just keep plugging away at what you do, because you my friend are
> a life saver!!!
> Anytime you need someone to speak about the results of your product,
> you have my number. We would gladly talk to them.
> Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
> Anthony & Linda Testa
> Jacksonville, Florida

=======================



- Show quoted text -

Quote:


> > [...]

> > >Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news group, I can't
> > >for the life of me understand why this many people are so dang blind
> > >or ignorant.
> > > You just keep plugging away at what you do, because you my friend are
> > >a life saver!!!

> > Okay, who the heck ARE you, really?

> Who am I? My real name is posted. The story you have read is true. We
> were at witts end, found Jerry's web page by happenstance, wrote to
> him almost exactly what you read, he gave me his suggestions, told me
> what my results would be including a time line and, you know what? He
> was and still is, right on the money. I don't care if he's a warlock,
> a professor, disgruntled Entomologist, or a man with a niche that
> makes the sciences itchy, he saved the day AND a dog's life. We were
> given suggestions from Medication, to a Behavi***Specialist. I
> decided that instead of creating a Jerry Garcia or pay 125.00 dollars
> an hour for my dog to lay on a couch to be freudiated, I decided Jerry
> Howe's method seemed to be more humane and serene. It worked, end of
> story.
> A. Testa

=====================


Quote:
> I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's not here
> with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her loss. I'm the one
> who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you write/wrote. I
> was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a shock collar could have
> any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using
> it my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own yard. Once I
> started using the e-fence...well, then my concern became how to keep
> them from running off for days on end.
> I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti-shock
> debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
> I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g> A Wits
> End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained, doesn't chew up
> stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all the time. IOW a great
> companion and friend.
> Thanks Jerry!

=====================


- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
> Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no
> collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to
> come back in the yard and would run for days. The
> last time, Peach didn't come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to
> train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
> minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the
> yard.
> She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her
> from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we
> walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
> e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
> then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an
> electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
> The price was too high:-(
> ~misty

============


- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> JERRY SAVE THIS LAD!!!!
> or it could be a troll <are you a troll??>
> do not use it on your dog..... would you use it on your best friend.....
> I have read jerry's book, it seems to easy at first. however I started to
> use some of the training out of it and now.
> I have a dog that heels as fast as a collie in a trial.<great dane X
> mastiff
> I have a

...

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Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Carol Levi » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:06:52



Quote:
> I'm not Tara, but I've used the clicker to desensitize Solo to big scary
> men in a similar way.  He used to turn and watch big guys (sometimes
> small guys) warily if they walked near us, walked past us, or we walked
> by them.  If the guy stopped and watched Solo, Solo would growl.  So I
> started with Jean Donaldson's "bar's open/bar's closed" approach, where I
> would just start giving Solo treats every time a guy came into the
> vicinity, and stop the second he was gone.  

Okay...sounds good. Going to have to re-read Donaldson.

Quote:
>After a while of this Solo
> stopped being so edgy around guys.  That's when I started to use the
> clicker -- I'd click when a guy came into the vicinity, -if- Solo wasn't
> doing anything.  

What did you do if Solo _was_ acting up? Did you use the clicker to refocus his attention? And then reward afterwards? Or what?

Thanks,

Carol
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Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Tara » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:16:40


Quote:

> Here are my questions: if I've understood your method, you were using the clicker to get Finn's attention, correct?

Actually, the first couple of times, I was doing it wrong! I was SO used
to having to react to the presence of other dogs, that as soon as the
dog appeared, my thumb just went bonkers on the clicker! lol. I think my
motive *was* to "get" his attention.....and it did happen that way.
However, the real purpose of it is to click for proper behavior....i.e.
the dog was in the vicinity and he didn't react (yet).

Quote:
> As opposed to the click signifying "you've already done something that I want so now you're about to get a treat?"

As I stated above, this is actually how it *should* work and the timing
to strive for. I found that in reality, the line was often blurred with
a dog who has very fast reaction times. If I clicked as soon as the dog
was in sight, Finn technically *was* being clicked for a good behavior.
The happy side effect was that it often prevented subsequent
"undesirable" behaviors cuz he was busy getting his reward for doing it
well. I found it was destructive to rely on this side effect too
heavily, though, as it made it too tempting to move too quickly.

His reaction to other dogs was SO fast, that the very sight of a dog a
block away was enough to get his hackles up and start him on the
"huffing and puffing" (he's a master at puffing out his cheeks when he
discovers that there's a dog walking around on his planet:-). The
clickes were to reward that split second just after the dog  "appeared"
(even if it was far away by my standards), but *before* he reacted. My
voice could never possibly come out fast enough to mark that moment. I
also found that it was really helpful to use a neutral sound. Voices
carry emotion....and for some dogs, even if its a happy, fun emotion,
they are already overloaded in those kinds of stressful situations.

Quote:
> Did you use the clicker for anything other than desensitizing Finn to other dogs?

Nope. To tell you the truth, I had never really been a proponent of
clicker training before that.....and I still don't use them for much. If
I had a dog that I was doing distance work with, or agility (which I
would *love* to be able to do someday), I would probably do more with
clicker training. Finn was definitely a "crossover dog" though, so when
I would try to experiment with clicker stuff around the house, he would
spend an inordinate amount of time just sitting there waiting for me to
tell him what to do. From what I had learned, I expected that.....but I
think his physical pain made him even less inclined to be inventive and
independant.....so I gave up on that.

Quote:
> Did he ever learn to relax around other dogs or did he just learn to ignore them and focus on you?

His ability to focus on me outside, especially in the presence of dogs,
was proof enough that he was more relaxed. He'll *never* be a dog that
enjoys the company of mobs of other dogs. He's had one or two
"girlfriends" in his life, but as he got older, and more tender
physically, his ability to deal with the stress of socializing waned a
lot. Would he have ever become a "social dog", I doubt it......but the
improvement I saw over that short period of time was pretty incredible.

Quote:
> Did it ever progress to the point where you could stop using the clicker because he knew what he was supposed to do?

We never got to have that kind of time, so I can't answer that. Within a
couple of months, he went in for hip surgery, and faced numerous
complications (due to Doctor error) that he is still suffering for
today. It was over a year before we had the opportunity to try it
again.....and frankly,  we were both pretty emotionally drained. I've
gone back to it occasionally since, but every month or so he has another
mini crisis physically that makes it hard to stay consistent with it.

Melanie's description is very much like what I did. The "Bar's
Open/Bar's Closed" method coupled with clicker markers was exactly
it.....except that we made sure to stay *well* into his "safety zone"
when doing the work. NOt that Melanie didn't, but I didn't see that
clearly expressed in her post and I wanted to make certain to stress that.

I'm exhausted from another major setback in his physical health. His leg
is rupturing big time again :-( He's getting worse and the new
medication isn't slowing it down as much as we'd hoped. Yup....spent the
afternoon crying over my poor boy's broken body. His spirit is still
pretty strong though. Please send good thoughts his way.

Tara

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Tara » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:21:28


Quote:


>>I'm not Tara, but I've used the clicker to desensitize Solo to big scary
>>men in a similar way.  He used to turn and watch big guys (sometimes
>>small guys) warily if they walked near us, walked past us, or we walked
>>by them.  If the guy stopped and watched Solo, Solo would growl.  So I
>>started with Jean Donaldson's "bar's open/bar's closed" approach, where I
>>would just start giving Solo treats every time a guy came into the
>>vicinity, and stop the second he was gone.  

> Okay...sounds good. Going to have to re-read Donaldson.

>>After a while of this Solo
>>stopped being so edgy around guys.  That's when I started to use the
>>clicker -- I'd click when a guy came into the vicinity, -if- Solo wasn't
>>doing anything.  

> What did you do if Solo _was_ acting up? Did you use the clicker to refocus his attention? And then reward afterwards? Or what?

I can't answer for Melanie, but in my case the answer is NO. If I missed
the point where he hadn't reacted yet, I blew it. Pure and simple. At
that point, the only thing to do is to get him farther away from the
source of his reaction and draw a new boundary in my mind that defined
his safety zone. This method isn't really about "sweeping up" after
they've reacted, but to teach them how not to react in the first place.
That's critical.

Tara

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:33:57


You're terribly confused about dog training tara.green2.
I recommend you stick to your LEAVE IT command and
just kill any dogs you can't ***and intimidate in to
being friendly and not steal and destroy stuff.
Quote:
----- Original Message -----


Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always

Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that maligning
you and your training manual but tell them from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over there
to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him for growling at me.

I told her to tell him what a good boy he is instead. Lo and behold
he stopped growling and I could do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method and
my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten his
enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day. Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids through
the fence. I can now take him in the car with me again without him
trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is Do No
Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he belongs.

Thank you so much.

Kay

=============

Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with your training
manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control psychos to obedient well
behaved companions within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the
success and have asked me to work on their dogs! I was working with a 5
month old Ridgeback female today and she was being an angel after like an
hour of working with her! it is AMAZING!! I pity those fools who take their
dogs to classes where the "Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a
degree? A masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the
street who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.

Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.

Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn

Nevyn says:
How are you?

Jerry says:
sup?

Nevyn says:
Oh nothing

Nevyn says:

My dogs are alot better now!

Jerry says:
fine

Jerry says:
tell me

Nevyn says:

dogs

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
Yup

Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?

Nevyn says:
No

Nevyn says:
Praised them

Jerry says:
ahh!

Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better

Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and
pours water on them

Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!

Nevyn says:
muahaha

Jerry says:
ok

Jerry says:
I'll go for that

Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you're
consistent

Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them

Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends

Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath

Nevyn says:
muahahaha

Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're suckin hind teat?

Nevyn says:
eh

Nevyn says:
nah

Nevyn says:
cant

Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin

Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it

Jerry says:
why not.

Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server

Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer
to see you ***and shock and lock your dogs in a box?

Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't already know,
huh?

Nevyn says:
hah

Nevyn says:
tell them they're ***ers who need to die

Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much

Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now

Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?

Nevyn says:
pfftt

Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training

Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual

Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!

Jerry says:
hhahahahaha

Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with EVERYTHING you're
wanting them to do?

Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.

Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass
off at him growling at his dogs???

Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Nevyn says:
LOL

Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!

Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune

=====================

Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into *** position when a
tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL

Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!

Nevyn says:
lol

Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything was in
your expert control.

Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------


Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST

Hello

I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler
(spots) x Kelpi (*** genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug
(don't laugh!).

They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and they are
friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously
*** over the other, and I don't have a problem with that,
however;

Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good whilst I'm
walking them, some days they are not. They are 3 years old and have
only been walking for about 12 months because my mom didn't walk them
and now I'm home so I walk them for about an hour and half every
afternoon. I take them to the park where they chase birds and swim in
the lake.

This is my problem :

The less-*** dog viscously barks at every other dog we walk
past; I have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when she does it,
and treating her with treats when she doesn't, using a ***chain, a
muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks.

She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ]

Also, the more-*** dog seems to know this is WRONG, when the
other dog barks, she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other dog as if
telling her to cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the
more-*** one and they fight on the leash... it is quite
disturbing to the people walking past.

And also the more-*** one is okay around other
dogs... SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely ignores them, and yet
other times she will attack them, like yesterday. The less ***
one I must keep on a leash if a person brings there dog to the park.

How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the methods
I have used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it just a pac
k-behaviour thing?

It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs attack some old
lady's or little girl's dog.

They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other dogs
around. Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying around the park
and they were chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them for
more than 90 minutes (They went straight to bed when I bought them
home!). Can anyone help me? Email me at my emails address,

Thanks,
Nevyn

=======================



> I moved to Jacksonville, Florida about a year ago with my lovely wife
> linda. 3 times a week for 7 months I visited the Dog shelter and
> Humane Society looking for a German Shepherd. There were several times
> they had a dog there, but I was looking for a ***. The reason for
> this is, all my life I have always had a female German shepard.
> Therefore, I wanted another one. Finally about 6 weeks ago, I found
> her. "Angel" looked just like my previous dog of 12 years. I called m
> wife, she came down and fell in love with her immediately.

> We filled out the paper work and left the Humane Society with her. We
> drove directly to Pet Smart to buy all the essentials. We bought the
> biggest crate available. Let it be known I have never used a crate
> with any of my previous dogs. The biggest difference is my other dogs
> I had from puppy age. Angel just turned 2, 3 days before adoption.

> Angel appeared to be happy the trip home. Her ears were down all the
> time and her tail was so far between her legs that it looked like she
> had 3 ears. (humor)
> None the less, we knew we had a dog that was insecure.

> The first night we let Angel sleep in the living room. However, we had
> to go to work the next day. We pet her, kissed her and put her in the
> crate in the middle of the living room. During the day, my sons came
> home to walk her, give her a little loving and play with her. Then put
> her back in the crate and go to work. When we got home the first day,
> everything in the crate was ripped to shreds. The neighbors
> approached us and said that the dogs barked constantly for 3 hours.
> then barked continuously after my sons left again. We thought it was
> because everything was new. We were wrong. The dig did this every day
> for 4 days.

> The 4th day was our first scheduled visit with the vet. The vet told
> us he can see that the dog is suffering from a abuse and separation
> anxiety. So, the vet puts the dog on clomicalm. (not sure of the

...

read more »

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:07:41


She beat Solo in the face drugged crated and choked him for acting up.




Quote:
> I'm not Tara, but I've used the clicker to desensitize Solo to big scary
> men in a similar way.  He used to turn and watch big guys (sometimes
> small guys) warily if they walked near us, walked past us, or we walked
> by them.  If the guy stopped and watched Solo, Solo would growl.  So I
> started with Jean Donaldson's "bar's open/bar's closed" approach, where I
> would just start giving Solo treats every time a guy came into the
> vicinity, and stop the second he was gone.

Okay...sounds good. Going to have to re-read Donaldson.

Quote:
>After a while of this Solo
> stopped being so edgy around guys.  That's when I started to use the
> clicker -- I'd click when a guy came into the vicinity, -if- Solo wasn't
> doing anything.

What did you do if Solo _was_ acting up? Did you use the clicker to refocus
his attention? And then reward afterwards? Or what?

Thanks,

Carol
--
Delete the ".x" to reply

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:23:46


You don't got no idea of HOWE to train a dog. You're liar and an abuser
tara.green2. Teach us your leave it command.



Quote:

> >>I'm not Tara, but I've used the clicker to desensitize Solo to big scary
> >>men in a similar way.  He used to turn and watch big guys (sometimes
> >>small guys) warily if they walked near us, walked past us, or we walked
> >>by them.  If the guy stopped and watched Solo, Solo would growl.  So I
> >>started with Jean Donaldson's "bar's open/bar's closed" approach, where
I
> >>would just start giving Solo treats every time a guy came into the
> >>vicinity, and stop the second he was gone.

> > Okay...sounds good. Going to have to re-read Donaldson.

> >>After a while of this Solo
> >>stopped being so edgy around guys.  That's when I started to use the
> >>clicker -- I'd click when a guy came into the vicinity, -if- Solo wasn't
> >>doing anything.

> > What did you do if Solo _was_ acting up? Did you use the clicker to

refocus his attention? And then reward afterwards? Or what?

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> I can't answer for Melanie, but in my case the answer is NO. If I missed
> the point where he hadn't reacted yet, I blew it. Pure and simple. At
> that point, the only thing to do is to get him farther away from the
> source of his reaction and draw a new boundary in my mind that defined
> his safety zone. This method isn't really about "sweeping up" after
> they've reacted, but to teach them how not to react in the first place.
> That's critical.

> Tara

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Tricia99 » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:28:07


Quote:
>Melanie's description is very much like what I did. The "Bar's
>Open/Bar's Closed" method coupled with clicker markers was exactly
>it.....except that we made sure to stay *well* into his "safety zone"
>when doing the work. NOt that Melanie didn't, but I didn't see that
>clearly expressed in her post and I wanted to make certain to stress that.

Classical Conditioning. Dog's emotional state is conditioned to relax around
the other dogs.

Quote:

>I'm exhausted from another major setback in his physical health. His leg
>is rupturing big time again :-( He's getting worse and the new
>medication isn't slowing it down as much as we'd hoped. Yup....spent the
>afternoon crying over my poor boy's broken body. His spirit is still
>pretty strong though. Please send good thoughts his way.

>Tara

Good thoughts Tara. Don't know what's specifically going on with your boy, but
I hope he can keep up the strength to deal with this.
 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:37:59


I wonder if he didn't get crippled learning tara's LEAVE IT command?


Quote:
> >Melanie's description is very much like what I did. The "Bar's
> >Open/Bar's Closed" method coupled with clicker markers was exactly
> >it.....except that we made sure to stay *well* into his "safety zone"
> >when doing the work. NOt that Melanie didn't, but I didn't see that
> >clearly expressed in her post and I wanted to make certain to stress
that.

> Classical Conditioning. Dog's emotional state is conditioned to relax
around
> the other dogs.

> >I'm exhausted from another major setback in his physical health. His leg
> >is rupturing big time again :-( He's getting worse and the new
> >medication isn't slowing it down as much as we'd hoped. Yup....spent the
> >afternoon crying over my poor boy's broken body. His spirit is still
> >pretty strong though. Please send good thoughts his way.

> >Tara

> Good thoughts Tara. Don't know what's specifically going on with your boy,
but
> I hope he can keep up the strength to deal with this.

 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Karl » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:29:16



<snip>

Quote:

> I'm exhausted from another major setback in his physical >health. His leg

is rupturing big time again :-( He's getting >worse and the new medication
isn't slowing it down as >much as we'd hoped. Yup....spent the afternoon
crying >over my poor boy's broken body. His spirit is still  pretty >strong
though. Please send good thoughts his way.
Quote:

> Tara

Good thoughts flying his way hard and fast Tara, good thoughts, good
prayers, good magic.
Karla
 
 
 

Q? for Tara...was re: Growl classes

Post by Beth » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:08:26


Quote:


> > I'm exhausted from another major setback in his physical >health. His
leg
> is rupturing big time again :-( He's getting >worse and the new medication
> isn't slowing it down as >much as we'd hoped. Yup....spent the afternoon
> crying >over my poor boy's broken body. His spirit is still  pretty
>strong
> though. Please send good thoughts his way.

> > Tara

=

piggybacking, because i missed the original...

tails, toes, fingers crossed for your guy to be feeling better asap.