Amy Dahl - +ACI-Forced Fetch Without The E Collar+ACI-

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Amy Dahl - +ACI-Forced Fetch Without The E Collar+ACI-

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 06 Apr 2003 23:34:56




+AD4- Saw a very nice, glossy magazine in the bookstore, called 'Just Labs', and
+AD4- there was an article in it by Amy. Short article about training methods,
the
+AD4- gist being that Labs can handle either traditional or motivational. The
fit has
+AD4- to be with what the person is comfortable with. I guess she is a regular
+AD4- contributor as she is listed as being on the staff.
+AD4-  Looks like a magazine that could easily be called 'Just Dogs', since it
seems
+AD4- lots of it is really not very breed specific application, but photos are
all
+AD4- labs. Shiny and new.

Hello amy,


+AD4- Thanks, Ed, I'll take a look.  Did Jerry make a guess

Jerry don't GUESS when it comes to dog training.

+AD4- as to what the slingshot is for?

You can use your slingshot for any behavior control at a distance,
like fence jumping or barking or digging holes or eating poo, just
like it says in your koehler book. BB's are good too, so your book
says.

+AD4- Did he correctly guess that we use it on a water blind to make a
+AD4- splash in the water ahead of the dog, to help him understand that
+AD4- there's something ahead of him to retrieve?

That's the only good use for it.

+AD4- It's a lot longer range than throwing rocks.

Why don't you just make your dummy husband go out there and snatch
her up outta the water and beat her a while? That's what you do on
land, as articulated in your own words about Pudge being so soft
she'd avoid being beaten with a riding crop even when tied and
knowing she can't escape it. Correct? Or am I making up your own
published words again?

+AD4- Amy Dahl

I've been wanting to find out from the first time we chit chatted,
HOWE COME you've got to beat and shock your dogs to make them
reliable hunting partners. It's INSTINCTIVE in dogs, with the
Retriver Dog getting the capital R in front of his name Retrieve for
obvious reasons, and you can't even bring that out in a dog without
hurting him.

Read on and correct me, if you've got the nerve. We'll see:


About dahls +ACI-Forced Fetch Without The E Collar+ACI- article:

+AD4- +AD4- As a matter of fact, I did read it with interest.  To be
+AD4- +AD4- forthright with you, I had no response because I am not
+AD4- +AD4- experienced with retriever training. I didn't think it would be right
+AD4- +AD4- to attempt to pick apart your post as I have no knowledge about
+AD4- +AD4- the situation you described.

That's why I answered it.

+AD4- I would hope some other response would be possible than +ACI-picking
+AD4- it apart.+ACI-

You want to talk training? That's what we do to training methods to
determine if they're going to be suitable for a particular task.
You'll notice in the +ACI-concerns about the Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual+ACI- thread nobody bothered to discuss the techniques...
Seems the only issue they took was a couple seplling and grammer
mistooks.

+AD4- Every post does not require an adversarial response.

What adversarial? We examine a technique, we observe and detail the
dogs' responses, and we figger it out to see if we got it right or
not. Sometimes I spend a couple days just thinking out scenarios to
set a dog up in to get a behavior trained.

+AD4- I was and am curious if you were at all surprised to have spelled
+AD4- out the infrequency of collar use,

I pointed that out. It looked to me like it was an oversight, like
you left
out half the training. I'm surprised you mention it now, makes me
think you didn't think we was paying attention. That makes me think
there's something fishy going on again, eh dahl?. Let's face it, you
do
have a *** record of lying.

+AD4- the importance of context, the sophistication of protocol,

Exactly. You'll see a whole lot of out of context work and q+ACEAJAAk- poor
planning in your post if you look at it from the perspective of a
competent trainer. I'll repost +ACI-swiss cheese training+ACI- below for
you.

+AD4- and the sheer quantity of preliminary training used to make sure
+AD4- the response to the collar is as desired.

You make me sick. You could***a maggot. If the damned dog was
trained properly you wouldn't NEED to hurt him no matter HOWE little
you claim you HURT the dog.

+AD4- Were you surprised to learn that the +ACI-nick+ACI- from the collar,

You mean the shock? You mean the shock you gave the dog after
he'd broke his command, refused several subsequent commands,
and thenM FINALLY comes to command and sits facing you waiting
for instructions...THEN YOU BURN HIM?

That's absurd. The whole scenario you proposed was bunk.

+AD4- when delivered, is not some mondo-punishment designed
+AD4- to make the dog behave out of fear,

Right. It's like beating the dog with a switch after you've tied him
down and thrown a dummy for him to retrieve that he can't get to+ADs-

It's intended to motivate the dog and demonstrate teamwork, pack
cohesiveness, and cooperation. The dog learns to respect the Thug
weilding the switch and shows his eagerness to work by jumping
e***dly when shown the switch and chain.

+AD4- but a mild stimulus which functions more as communication,

Yeah? A static like stimulation from a medical grade shock-like
device. Dogs don't shock each other to communicate. And they don't
slap each other. And hitting dogs is not clear communication despite
what steve boyer says. And chin cuff DOES mean slap the damned
dog. And nick? I don't know what nick means. I know what shock
means.

+AD4- and which the dog has previously been taught not to fear?

What is this with you? You think we believe you give a damn about
what the dog thinks? You HURT dogs to train them. Chin cuff don't
mean slap the dog according to your pal professora gingold. You
pinch but don't twist ears, and you never mentioned twisting toes or
the toe hitch.

+AD4- Did it help you understand any of the
+AD4- things you did wrong with your Dal?

Yeah. It showed me you don't know any better than the shock collar
salesman. If you was such a hot shot trainer you wouldn't NEED to
hurt dogs to train them.

+AD4- What happened to your e-collar after you quit using it?

Make her an offer for it. She don't need it no moore. She trained
her dogs in just a few days using my FREE Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual without hurting nobody.

+AD4- Amy Dahl

Now take a look at the whole story:

Hello Amy,


+AD4- +AD4- Thanks for your reply... it is informative but not quite what I
+AD4- +AD4- was seeking.

Of course not. She's given you an example that is so far fetched (no
pun intended) from anyones' experience, familiarity, and abilty to
discuss as a training problem, that she's confounded all but the
+ACI-experts+ACI- who are into +ACI-advanced+ACI- training...cindy mooron, dogman,
all our koehler fans.

That's why I came in here, because our +ACI-experts+ACI- have a long history
of confounding the issues to make competent trainers seem
unknowledgeable, in order to protect their alleged right to hurt
dogs to train them.

+AD4- +AD4- I was looking for an actual example of what is done
+AD4- +AD4- using an e collar.

Well, that's something you've got to ask an expert about. I'll
answer the questions if you'd like.

+AD4- +AD4- Do you recall any of your training sessions in
+AD4- +AD4- which you used an e collar?

The ecollar is generally used after the dog has been meticulously
trained by an expert trainer and the introduction of the e collar
done in the proscribed manner to insure reliability.

+AD4- +AD4- Again, I'm not going to use one+ADs-

Good idea, because there's never any need to hurt or intimidate a
dog to train them.

+AD4- +AD4- I only wanted to know how such training was
+AD4- +AD4- accomplished in one specific example.

The usual answer is that you need an expert to show you because it's
too complicated for our scientists and engineers here to detail in
writing. It requires in person teaching at the heel of a master
trainer who train dogs to the higest degree of expertise, and then
shocks the dog for not performing it's allegedly properly trained
and conditioned commands.

+AD4- Let's see.

Yeah. Let's see...

+AD4- Suppose you are trying to teach a retriever something
+AD4- like going over a point of land and continuing in the water.

You mean to move out in a straight line.

+AD4- This is something which needs to be taught if you want your dog to
+AD4- be at all versatile in doing blind retrieves

Seems to me straight means in a straight, straight line.

+AD4- (taking direction to pick up birds he hasn't seen fall).

You mean go where I point? Seems to me left is left and right is
right. I always look at my hand to be sure. I line the thumbs up
with the big toe, and cipher from there, which one is left or right.

+AD4- The reason is,

Well, the reason is I'd want to be sure I'm using the same left and
same right as the dog knows, or I'd really***him up when I
burned him.

+AD4- of course,

Of course. That's one reason why I don't ever +ACI-correct+ACI- or hurt dogs
to train them, we sometimes get it wrong and louse the dog up.

+AD4- that although people tend to think in terms of straight
+AD4- lines and directions, a dog is contending with aspects of terrain
+AD4- and landscape and needs to learn how to negotiate a variety of
+AD4- those in order to understand the directions a person may give him.

Seems to me straight means straight. What's the problem for the
terrain if the dog is taught to go out straight, and turn left or
right +ACI-righty tighty lefty loosy.+ACI- That's another trick I use to
know my lefts' from rights'.

+AD4- In a hunting or competition situation, a dog may well have to
+AD4- pass an area of irregular shoreline and needs to know how not
+AD4- to get hung up there.

Seems to me he'd do what he has to do to continue on his straight
send out. He wouldn't even have to check his dewclaws, just keep his
***to your face.

+AD4- Having done some drill work (same concept over shorter distances
+AD4- so that it is possible to do several repetitions without wearing
+AD4- the dog out)

What's wearing the dog out got to do with teaching him a straight go
out?

+AD4- we move on to a +ACI-cold blind+ACI- for which a straight
+AD4- line to the destination involves swimming, getting out of the
+AD4- water to go over a point, then getting back into the water and
+AD4- swimming, continuing in the original direction.

Straight, right?

+AD4- In the early stages of trying to generalize the drill work, dogs
+AD4- tend to get up on the point and then want to run up on the shore.
+AD4- They appear to think, +ACI-I've crossed the water so the bird must be
+AD4- on this piece of land.+ACI-

Right. So you'd tell him to continue, right?

+AD4- When the dog gets out of the water onto the point, therefore,
+AD4- we stop the dog (the dog is well-trained by this time to stop,

But I thought we wanted the dog to continue forward? Seems the dog
knows stop a lot better than straight ahead. There's no reason to
stop the dog.

+AD4- spin, and sit facing the handler any time it hears the handler's
+AD4- whistle)

That certainly would make you feel like you're in control, and that
seems to be what you're most interested in, but I don't see HOWE you
are getting the information you need across to your dog, using
the tactics you are.

Seems to me, you're distracting and confusing the dog from his work
in order to redirect him which should have happened without the dog
even breaking stride, by simply giving an appropriate cue and
praise, to tell the dog he failed to perform the command he's
working, and at that point the dog would simply correct himself,
were he PROPERLY trained. That's HOWE my dogs work... And I don't be
sending my dogs after dead birdies, I send them after live
human prey in real life, not trials. If the dog fails this
+ACI-correction,+ACI- the
next command must be to return to the handler.

+AD4- and give a cast back into the water,

You mean you give a new hand signal to continue straight ahead.
Why you needed to stop the dog has little to do with training the
dog,
and more to do with your insecurity about control.

+AD4- usually at an angle--for example,

Spare us, that's not germane to this discussion. You're throwing in
cheap filler like they do in commercial dog foods.

+AD4- if the shore is to the right, the direction
+AD4- given to the dog might be 45 degrees back to the left.

Right. But I thought we were sending the dog straight out?

That's going to require me lookin down at my thumbs, and then
running over to the dog and face the same direction as him and look
at his dew claws, and then run like the***ens back to my spot to
give the command before I forget which direction I should send the
dog on his straight go out command?

Now I know why training a bird dog to go out and come back with a
birdie stymies you to the point you've got to hurt a Retriever dog
to make them do the most natural thing in the world for a Retriever
Dog to do, i.e., retrieve.

+AD4- Commonly the dog will not take this cast--not out of disobedience,

No? O.K. This ought to be PHAT.

But because he's not thouroughly trained? That's the only excuse.
The dog is not thouroughly generalized to the concept. The dog is
working in a new environment. That's a very essential consideration
when we're working a dog off of his ordinary training area. It's all
explained in my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.

+AD4- but because he does not think that the handler +ACI-really+ACI- wants him
+AD4- to get back into the water.

You think so? You think the dog disobeys your command because he
don't think you want him to get his feet wet again? What the heel
kind of bunk are you trying to pitch us? That's totally absurd. The
dog was sent to go straight out. The dog stopped. The dog should be
distracted and praised and redirected onto the original command,
and failing that, be asked to come and started over from scratch, on
a
clean slate, using no +ACI-ATTRITION+ACI- as you like to call it, as taught
in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.

And don't give me any of that +ACI-he's too far away crap.+ACI-

+AD4-  If he goes to the right at all, the handler immediately blows
+AD4- another whistle, and repeats the cast, or, to clarify, gives a
+AD4- cast straight to the left.

Waitadamnminit. Now you're confusing me. That's my job, thank you
very much. The difference is, I confuse folks with FACTS, not self
serving hype.

What you're saying is, the dog breaks a command, and you just repeat
the command he just broke???

That's not appropriate according to any book on dog training I've
ever read. Has anybody got an instance where our +ACI-expert+ACI- trainers
simply repeat a command when the command that was issued was
broken???

Come on.

+AD4- It is common in this situation for the dog to go in the wrong
+AD4- direction several times.

Yes, because once a dog BREAKS a command, that means he's
OFF COMMAND until such time as he's been corrected in some
manner. RIGHT? Tell me I'm wrong, ms dahl... You're an +ACI-expert+ACI-
dog trainer? You should know these things, shouldn't you?

+AD4- Usually the dog realizes that what he is doing is not working,

HOWE? A message from G-D?

+AD4- because the handler keeps stopping him.

Oh. Instead of correcting his mistake and redirecting him? Sounds
terribly undisciplined and complicated and very confusing to a dog
who was ONLY given a command to go straight out, and failed to
continue far enough. This problem should have been addressed long
before ever attmpting a blind retrieve under the circumstances you
describe.

The training problem is twofold. The dog is not experienced on
working commands in a new territory, i.e. the commands have NOT been
properly generalized, and you break the dogs' training
methodology that you've used up till this point.

Is there EVER a time a mistake is made, that it is not instantly
corrected, EXCEPT in this one case that you've  twisted into a mess?

You'd NEVER give a command and NOT correct the mistake
instantly, except in this one BOGUS example you're giving us to
justify hurting dogs to train them.

+AD4- But occasionally the dog starts to get sloppy,

The dog already IS sloppy ferchrissakes. The dog failed to continue
his go straight out command. You ignore his mistake, and give him
other commands and now the dog has no freaking idea what he was
originally sent to do+ADs- therefore, when you go to repeat the drill,
the dog will most likely repeat the mistake, becuse YOU failed to
correct the dog at the INSTANT he varied from his straight out
course, and redirect him.

+AD4- and perhaps slips a whistle or sits but does not look at the
+AD4- handler.

BECAUSE THE DOG IS ALREADY OFF COMMAND. Once a dog
breaks the original command, that is a MAJOR behavior problem,
according to the Wits' End Dog Training Method.

WE take strict obedience very seriously, perhaps that's because I
don't have the option of fixing my mistakes by HURTING the dog???
Could that be?

+AD4- Either way,

Either way, you've got one hullava lot of explaining on that to do
before anyone's going to believe you know what the heel you're
talking about when it comes to dog training, ms dahl.

+AD4- if the trainer thinks the dog is not getting the idea,

Why in the heel SHOULD the dog get the idea when he's been
ALLOWED to break a command, not get redirected, and now is
getting stopped and started and all kinds of confused. That dog
should have been given one opportunity to correct his mistake, or be
called back in to repeat the command from the git go. That way you
don't get bogged down and causing aversions to the commands.

+AD4- he/she may blow the sit whistle, get the dog sitting, and then
+AD4- give the dog a nick,

O.K. You finally get the dog under control, and THEN shock him?

+AD4- followed by another blast of the whistle.

O.K. Lemme git this straight. We take the dog from being off
command and out of control, bring him onto command and in control,
THEN shock him, and THEN give him a new command? It had better
be the original go straight out command, or the dog is going to be
thouroughly confused about this, IF he was able to follow your
thinking.... and it's a challenge for me to see what message you're
trying to show your dog about BREAKING A GO OUT STRAIGHT
command.

Whew+ACE- Talk about a Rube Goldberg+ACEAIQAh-

+AD4- A +ACI-nick+ACI-

Is a euphamism for shock, just like chin cuff is a euphamism for
give the dog an uppercut under the chin so the dog doesn't see it
coming with that +ACI-ever ready right hand+ACI- of yours. You think the dog
is stupid and won't think you just cracked him in the mouth. Idiot.

+AD4- uses the momentary setting--

As opposed to the constant burn setting.

+AD4- it's an +ACI-over-before-you- know-it+ACI-

O.K. Lightening is over before you know it too. Know what else is
over
before you know it? Your status as an +ACI-expert+ACI- dog trainer.

You're FINISHED.

+AD4- type of correction at a level that is noticed by
+AD4- the dog but does not upset or intimidate him.

Says YOU? You beat dogs with sticks for not retrieving a thrown
retrieve article on account of you got him tied+ACEAIQAh-

+AD4- This provides additional information

Yes.

+AD4- to the dog that what he's doing is not the correct solution,

A little LATE, isn't it? Aren't mistakes supposed to be corrected
INSTANTLY, not fif*** commands later? HOWE is the dog
supposed to know he failed a straight go out? Simple. HE DOESN'T
HAVE A CLUE, because you're an incompetent trainer. Because if
you were a competent trainer, you wouldn't need to hurt dogs to
begin with.

Next we can discuss why you can't just admit that shocking and
beating dogs and twisting and pinching their body parts does hurt
them, but that's all you understand about training dogs?

That would make me a lot friendlier... SEE? I'm always willing to
help out other trainers who need help, but you don't seem to think
you're
doing anything wrong, except that you do deny the truth... So that
tells me you LIKE hurting dogs, because you wouldn't need to hurt
them if you were a competent trainer...

+AD4- and that he needs to try something else.

A long time after the dog has broken his original command??? The
dog is totally confused, and is now getting burned for doing what
he's just been told to do. Wait till Canis55 or Aspiring Trainer or
Parker reads this post, they'll freak out.

+AD4- The handler then repeats the cast into the water.

You mean the hand signal that should have been repeated fif***
commansds sooner, as soon as the dog went off course and failed to
respond to his +ACI-correction,+ACI- a brief distraction and praise, and had
he failed to go back on course on his own, should have only then
recieved just one signal to go into the straight send out, and
failing that, immediately be recalled to subordinate the dog, and
return him to the heel position (one of partnership) and redirected
to the command with a clean slate.

+AD4- This is a  combination of techniques retriever people call +ACI-attrition+ACI-
+AD4- and +ACI-indirect pressure.+ACI-

HUH??? You're drowning me in diarrehah of the mouth. You're so full
of ***I can't stand it... You're +ACI-indirect pressure+ACI- means PAIN.
And here's Websters' on attrition:

1 +AFs-Middle English attricioun, from Medieval Latin attrition-,
attritio, from  Latin+AF0- : sorrow for one's sins that arises from a
motive other than that of  the love of God

 2 : the act of rubbing together : FRICTION+ADs- also : the act of
wearing or  grinding down by friction

 3 : the act of weakening or exhausting by constant harassment,
abuse, or  attack

 4 : a reduction in numbers usu. as a result of resignation,
retirement, or  death

 -- at+ACo-tri+ACo-tion+ACo-al (adjective)

+AD4- It is important to keep the dog from failing the retrieve,

IT'S TOO LATE+ACEAIQAh- You've already done that+ACE- You're crying over spiled
milk+ACE- Your reasoning is warped and your method is shot full of
holes.

The dog has had several commands now since he broke the original
command. If it was a twelve year old kid you was sending out like
that, I guarantee you he'd have no freaking idea of what he'd
originally been asked to do... This whole scenario indicts your
methods and your intellect and proves beyond a doubt you have no
qualites of a competent trainer in any discipline.

+AD4- and to keep the session from getting too drawn-out.

Whoa+ACE- The session was over the moment the dog first failed to
continue going straight out. That's the end of the story unless you
can redirect him onto the command within MOMENTS.

+AD4- Both of those problems are likely to discourage the dog.

No, those are YOUR problems, not the dogs'. Those problems would
discourage the dog only because you've confused him from the first
moment he went off course+ACE-

+AD4- The momentary nick makes it probable that he will get it right

You take a dog who's off command and out of control. Then you give
him repeated commands to go into another command. And when he
does, you shock the dog, and then give him a new command, and
you don't even begin the dog from the start of the problem, which
will
be repeated the next time the dog is sent out to that point, because
the dog has no idea what all that correction and extraneous
commands were about. This is a training disaster.

+AD4- (assuming

I don't like to assume nuthin. I like to line my ducks up in a row,
and take them all out with one shot. Maybe that's why I don't NEED
to hurt dogs to train them?

+AD4- he has been properly prepared),

If the dog was properly prepared, the straight send out would have
been generalized to several other training fields.

+AD4- be rewarded,

Hmm. Rewarded? When? I didn't see no rewards except you didn't
burn the dog for a prolonged period of time as soon as he went off
his original course... Unless you forgot that part too. Seems to me,
you failed to use your shock collar when the dog first makes his
mistake? Hmmm.

+AD4- and conclude the session with a positive attitude.

Right. Just kinda forget the dog never did do the straight send out.
Half the command is not the objective. You are focused on the
GOAL, instead of teaching the CONCEPT.

That's a typical problem our traditonal trainers have, they get
CONFUSED because they worry about RESULTS, instead of
properly teaching the concept of the command in context of working
together as a TEAM. Hurting dogs to make them works does not
inspire team cooperation.

+AD4- To use this approach,

You'd have to be an imbecile.

+AD4- your dog must be proficient at a significant body of foundation
+AD4- work,

Right. That was your first mistake, not generalizing the command to
different environments. It's very clearly explained in my FREE Wits'
End Dog Training Method manual.

+AD4- and be familiar with the e-collar (proper introduction)

Yes. Let's talk about that, shall we? I didn't hear anything from
you about the necessity of conditioning the collar before using
them. I'd been asking your expert pal freaky frantik fraud die about
that, as it pertains to snake proofing, another discussion that has
been very carefully misconstrued by your expert pals here who will
do and say anything to defend their alleged right to hurt dogs to
train them...

+AD4- and not afraid of it.

Oh? You think I'm gullible enough to think that a person who ties a
dog, throws a retrieve article for him, and then beats the dog with
a stick to make him really dig in, is going to be telling me the
truth when you say the dog is not afraid of being shocked, that it's
a momentary flash so brief as to be hardly noticed? It's just a
nick, not a burn? You gotta think we're all as stupid as our rpdb
regular koehler trainers, but the gig is up...

+AD4- Amy Dahl

Your pal, Jerry +ACI-Mr. NICE GUY+ACI- Howe, j+ADsAfgB9-