Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

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Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by BonnieTheColl » Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:08:29



  The AKC has suspended the registration priveliges of Athena Lethcoe-Harmon
and Jon Harmon for ten years, and fined them $2000.
  I'm not a big fan of the AKC in general, but it's good to see them doing this
- they've effectively made those dogs worthless to their owners as a
moneymaking operation.  

Jana
 &Bonnie+Max

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Chris Jun » Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:27:53



Quote:
>   The AKC has suspended the registration priveliges of Athena
Lethcoe-Harmon
> and Jon Harmon for ten years, and fined them $2000.
>   I'm not a big fan of the AKC in general, but it's good to see them doing
this
> - they've effectively made those dogs worthless to their owners as a
> moneymaking operation.

> Jana
>  &Bonnie+Max

I read this yesterday on Collie-L.  This is a big blow to the Harmons and I
hope it hurts.

Chris and her slumbering smoothies on the couch,
Zeffie and Pablo

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Melinda Sho » Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:15:29



Quote:

>I read this yesterday on Collie-L.  This is a big blow to the Harmons and I
>hope it hurts.

I hope it means that they'll give up the idea of***
onto 100 dogs.  When the AKC fines someone, how do they
enforce it?  Is it a matter of paying the fine in order to
be reinstated in 10 years?  If so, does that mean that don't
have to pay for 10 years?
--

          If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Lauren Brow » Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:52:17


Quote:

>   The AKC has suspended the registration priveliges of Athena Lethcoe-Harmon
> and Jon Harmon for ten years, and fined them $2000.
>   I'm not a big fan of the AKC in general, but it's good to see them doing this
> - they've effectively made those dogs worthless to their owners as a
> moneymaking operation.

A question for those of you who are closer to the situation:  is
there any possibility that the Harmons would allow, say,
the working collie association to buy them out?

I don't usually approve of rewarding foul people - but maybe
in this situation it would be the best thing for the dogs?

Just a thought (and an offer to donate to any such cause),

Lauren

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Mary Heale » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 00:08:08


Quote:

> I hope it means that they'll give up the idea of*** onto 100 dogs.

What I read recently is that it takes 30 people 5 hours to feed and walk
all the dogs in the morning, and a similar amount of man-hours in the
evening.  How could 2 or 3 people possibly ever provide sufficient care
for the same number of animals?

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo:  Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, finches, and fish

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Chris Jun » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 04:01:36



Quote:


> >I read this yesterday on Collie-L.  This is a big blow to the Harmons and
I
> >hope it hurts.

> I hope it means that they'll give up the idea of***
> onto 100 dogs.  When the AKC fines someone, how do they
> enforce it?  Is it a matter of paying the fine in order to
> be reinstated in 10 years?  If so, does that mean that don't
> have to pay for 10 years?
> --

>           If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it

You know, I'm not really sure.  I don't think this is a fine that the AKC
can legally pursue in court.  I guessing  it's a case where the Harmons have
to pay the fine by the end of the 10 year period to get their AKC privileges
back.  If they wait until the end of the 10 years, maybe the AKC tacks on
late payment fees.

  It's Athena's sole mission in life to breed AKC show collies.  Without AKC
privileges, her breeding program has been made worthless.  I wonder if the
Harmons will try to somehow get the collies registered in CKC (the real CKC
not Conkc) or some other sort of legit foreign registry to circumvent the
AKC sanctions.  I bet they'll try it and I also bet that it won't work.   I
just wish the Harmons would give it up and let the dogs go.  Even if they
won the court case, their name is mud in the collie world.

Chris and her smoothies,
Zeffie and Pablo

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Darby Wiggin » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 04:38:38


What I don't understand is what does she need over 100 dogs for? does even the
most reputable breeding kennel have that many? It was my understanding that for
the most part, the majority of *good* show dogs came out of litters who's
planners had only a small amount of breeding dogs on hand and when they weren't
breeding, they were either researching and planning the next breeding or doing
something with the dogs to continue on with their "performance" i.e., show,
agility, obedience ect

Who needs that many dogs?
Darby

Quote:





> > >I read this yesterday on Collie-L.  This is a big blow to the Harmons and
> I
> > >hope it hurts.

> > I hope it means that they'll give up the idea of***
> > onto 100 dogs.  When the AKC fines someone, how do they
> > enforce it?  Is it a matter of paying the fine in order to
> > be reinstated in 10 years?  If so, does that mean that don't
> > have to pay for 10 years?
> > --

> >           If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it

> You know, I'm not really sure.  I don't think this is a fine that the AKC
> can legally pursue in court.  I guessing  it's a case where the Harmons have
> to pay the fine by the end of the 10 year period to get their AKC privileges
> back.  If they wait until the end of the 10 years, maybe the AKC tacks on
> late payment fees.

>   It's Athena's sole mission in life to breed AKC show collies.  Without AKC
> privileges, her breeding program has been made worthless.  I wonder if the
> Harmons will try to somehow get the collies registered in CKC (the real CKC
> not Conkc) or some other sort of legit foreign registry to circumvent the
> AKC sanctions.  I bet they'll try it and I also bet that it won't work.   I
> just wish the Harmons would give it up and let the dogs go.  Even if they
> won the court case, their name is mud in the collie world.

> Chris and her smoothies,
> Zeffie and Pablo

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Chris Jun » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 07:47:12



Quote:
> What I don't understand is what does she need over 100 dogs for? does even
the
> most reputable breeding kennel have that many? It was my understanding
that for
> the most part, the majority of *good* show dogs came out of litters who's
> planners had only a small amount of breeding dogs on hand and when they
weren't
> breeding, they were either researching and planning the next breeding or
doing
> something with the dogs to continue on with their "performance" i.e.,
show,
> agility, obedience ect

> Who needs that many dogs?
> Darby

We had this discussion over at Collie-L.  The biggest respectable collie
kennels nowadays have at most 30 dogs and those folks feel at their very
limit.  It's hard to believe that the Harmons could possibility afford to do
all the proper health tests on all those collies and properly evaluate them
for suitability for breeding.

An odd bit of information is that the majority of the collies are young and
in their prime, only a few are older than 7.  I guess it was tough to be an
old collie at the Harmon's Alaska kennel. :-(

We learned on collie-L, that Athena was making champions by entering a bunch
of her collies at a time. Say the AKC point schedule for Alaska states that
it takes 7 ***es to make a 3 point major in smooth collies.  She would
enter 7 of her ***es and get majors that way.  So in some way she was
getting outside evaluation of her stock but not compared with dogs outside
her breeding.

Years ago, the very first collie kennels in the US were owned by the very
wealthy.  They sometimes had nearly 100 dogs but they also had full time
kennel staff and impeccable facilities.  Those dogs were around people all
day and were well taken care of.

Chris and her two lazy collies,
Zeffie & Pablo

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Emil » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:29:01


Quote:

> The AKC has suspended the registration priveliges of Athena Lethcoe-Harmon
> and Jon Harmon for ten years, and fined them $2000.
>   I'm not a big fan of the AKC in general, but it's good to see them doing this
> - they've effectively made those dogs worthless to their owners as a
> moneymaking operation.  

> Jana
>  &Bonnie+Max

I don't think this is true (yet).
The release on the AKC site says they are
inquiring...http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=1678

EmilyS

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Tiry » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 09:57:02


I don't know a lot about the dog show world, but about your comment about
loading the classes - isn't there a limit to the number of dogs that any one
breeder is allowed to have in any given class?  And if there isn't such a
rule, should there be, in order to eliminate this sort of thing?

Tirya
--
TDC Inca Jeeper
...which nicely encompasses three hobbies in one!
Don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die - adopt a stray and save a life.


Quote:
> We learned on collie-L, that Athena was making champions by entering a bunch
> of her collies at a time. Say the AKC point schedule for Alaska states that
> it takes 7 ***es to make a 3 point major in smooth collies.  She would
> enter 7 of her ***es and get majors that way.  So in some way she was
> getting outside evaluation of her stock but not compared with dogs outside
> her breeding.

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Shell » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:10:35



Quote:



> >   The AKC has suspended the registration priveliges of Athena
> Lethcoe-Harmon
> > and Jon Harmon for ten years, and fined them $2000.
> >   I'm not a big fan of the AKC in general, but it's good to see them
doing
> this
> > - they've effectively made those dogs worthless to their owners as a
> > moneymaking operation.

> > Jana
> >  &Bonnie+Max

> I read this yesterday on Collie-L.  This is a big blow to the Harmons and
I
> hope it hurts.

I agree with you on this one, Chris.   100%
Shelly & The Boys
 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Shell » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:23:43


AFAIK, there is no such rule.   I mean, you have to find people
to show them for you, since you couldn't possibly show WD, WB,
Reserve, etc all yourself! :-)
Really, she would only need to show the amount it would take to
build a major for each sex.
For example:  Where I live, a 5 point major for Rough Collie dogs
is 19, and 22 for ***es.   It is considerably less for Smooths,
at 8 dogs, 12 ***es.    She's got that, most likely, in her
kennels, or w/ local buyers.   And, I suspect point schedules
are lower in AK than down here in most of the lower 48.

The breed (Belgian Sheepdogs) I have, there are only a few
"local" breeders, it is
not uncommon to see well over half of the entries by the time BOB
rolls around are coming from one particular kennel (And that's
providing that we have enough entries to even have a major! :-))
 But, the point schedules are much
lower than w/ rough collies (5 point major=7 in dogs, 8 in ***es)

Of course, I've not seen many "show" photos of the Harmon's dogs,
so I cannot vouch for their "quality".   But, a judge always has the option
to not choose a winner at all if he deems no one worthy.  (I venture
to guess that this doesn't happen all that often, especially
w/ a fairly big entry like rough collies usually gets)
Shelly & The Boys


Quote:
> I don't know a lot about the dog show world, but about your comment about
> loading the classes - isn't there a limit to the number of dogs that any
one
> breeder is allowed to have in any given class?  And if there isn't such a
> rule, should there be, in order to eliminate this sort of thing?

> Tirya
> --
> TDC Inca Jeeper
> ...which nicely encompasses three hobbies in one!
> Don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die - adopt a stray and save a life.



> > We learned on collie-L, that Athena was making champions by entering a
bunch
> > of her collies at a time. Say the AKC point schedule for Alaska states
that
> > it takes 7 ***es to make a 3 point major in smooth collies.  She would
> > enter 7 of her ***es and get majors that way.  So in some way she was
> > getting outside evaluation of her stock but not compared with dogs
outside
> > her breeding.

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Rock » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:56:44


Tirya wrote in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Quote:
> I don't know a lot about the dog show world, but about your
> comment about loading the classes - isn't there a limit to
> the number of dogs that any one breeder is allowed to have
> in any given class?

Good question.  A few years ago I went to a big CKC conformation
show and was surprised to see a large number of Lowchen, at the
time a breed I'd never heard of.  As it turned out, they were
all from the same breeder.

--
--Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Beth » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 16:01:09



Quote:
> AFAIK, there is no such rule.   I mean, you have to find people
> to show them for you, since you couldn't possibly show WD, WB,
> Reserve, etc all yourself! :-)
> Really, she would only need to show the amount it would take to
> build a major for each sex.
> For example:  Where I live, a 5 point major for Rough Collie dogs
> is 19, and 22 for ***es.   It is considerably less for Smooths,
> at 8 dogs, 12 ***es.    She's got that, most likely, in her
> kennels, or w/ local buyers.   And, I suspect point schedules
> are lower in AK than down here in most of the lower 48.

Much lower in alaska.
 
 
 

Montana collie update: Harmons suspended

Post by Jo Wo » Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:51:34


Nah, there's no entry limit to the number of dogs owned by one person.
You can hire professionals and recruit friends to handle all you
want.... Sam Ewing, a wealthy attorney who also inheritted a bundle, has
a huge number of Irish Wolfhounds and a few Border Terriers and probably
other breeds... and a professionally operated kennel facility.  There
aren't that many of such kennels any more...

When I was starting in Border Terriers in Oklahoma in '84-'85, different
shows were tilted to various breeders for  numbers of entries, depending
on who lived nearest.  And it didn't take Many to get a major in either
sex.  My oldest guy got his first major against dogs from I think 2
other breeders... from an Australian judge.

Regarding the CKC and Athena...  Most Alaskan breeders near the border
cross-register... and show on both sides... as do large numbers of US
breeders... don't know about her.  But considering the Canadian border
was where this whole drama became public, I don't see the CKC as exactly
anxious to have much to do with her....

I think it's pretty certain she'll get a minimum of a 10 year AKC
suspension, possibly lifetime.  If 10 years, I suspect she'll be
required to start with new stock.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia