Thanks, and one more quick question

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Thanks, and one more quick question

Post by Rick » Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:00:00



I wanted to thank all of you for the training advice.  I found a personal
trainer, we are starting in 2 weeks.  Baby is going to school :-).  Very
good trainer though!  We are getting work books, and a ton of other stuff.
She isn't as expensive as I thought, $40 for 2 hours, usually every 2 or 3
weeks.  She has used an Ecollar before but would prefer to start with out
one.  She has competed in Obedience, and Agility.

Question is, long:

After I was explained to what an AlphaRoll was it made me think.  So once
curiosity got the best of me (almost a week), I tried to roll buster over.
Not is an aggressive way, just with love, almost like I wanted to give him
love on his tummy (in other words, nothing like an alpha-roll).  He really
didn't like the idea.  I used love tactics really quickly to see if it was a
situation where he was just scared and needed a little reassurance, again no
luck.

Now this started to bother me.  My sister-in-law is here every day.  She
probably sees the dog more than I do, because she lives next door and has
been out of work for the last 2 months.  So after some time, I asked her to
see if she could get buster on his back.  Another failure.  At this point my
wife's curiosity started in.  My wife is here 24x7 with Buster.  I guess you
could say primary care giver in his eyes, and she can't get Buster to show
us his tummy.

He does however offer it to us.  He will roll over on his back when we are
petting him some times..... now that I am getting paranoid, I can't remember
the last time, but it was probably some time over the weekend or late last
week.

So, I am wondering if this is any type of sign that I need to be aware of.
My worst fear is that, this was some baby-alpa-roll, or a trust sign, and we
failed..

More info on Buster, he is very mild mannered.  His is VERY young though
(16weeks).  He is really like a baby in some ways.  He always comes when you
call him, and loves to be touched by people and animals.  With his dog
friends he is very ***, flipping over on his back all the time and
***ing.  A funny thing was when he meet a 150pound Rottie named Bandit.  He
was sooooo e***d to see, what he might have thought was god, that he peeed
while he danced around Bandits feet, and flipped right over on his back.

Licking is crazy, he loves to*** if you go nose to nose :-)  I like it
now, but I bet that will change when every time I am sitting we are nose to
nose....

Rick

 
 
 

Thanks, and one more quick question

Post by Rick » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Should have asked something controversial......would have gotten a better
responce.

RF


Quote:
> I wanted to thank all of you for the training advice.  I found a personal
> trainer, we are starting in 2 weeks.  Baby is going to school :-).  Very
> good trainer though!  We are getting work books, and a ton of other stuff.
> She isn't as expensive as I thought, $40 for 2 hours, usually every 2 or 3
> weeks.  She has used an Ecollar before but would prefer to start with out
> one.  She has competed in Obedience, and Agility.

> Question is, long:

> After I was explained to what an AlphaRoll was it made me think.  So once
> curiosity got the best of me (almost a week), I tried to roll buster over.
> Not is an aggressive way, just with love, almost like I wanted to give him
> love on his tummy (in other words, nothing like an alpha-roll).  He really
> didn't like the idea.  I used love tactics really quickly to see if it was
a
> situation where he was just scared and needed a little reassurance, again
no
> luck.

> Now this started to bother me.  My sister-in-law is here every day.  She
> probably sees the dog more than I do, because she lives next door and has
> been out of work for the last 2 months.  So after some time, I asked her
to
> see if she could get buster on his back.  Another failure.  At this point
my
> wife's curiosity started in.  My wife is here 24x7 with Buster.  I guess
you
> could say primary care giver in his eyes, and she can't get Buster to show
> us his tummy.

> He does however offer it to us.  He will roll over on his back when we are
> petting him some times..... now that I am getting paranoid, I can't
remember
> the last time, but it was probably some time over the weekend or late last
> week.

> So, I am wondering if this is any type of sign that I need to be aware of.
> My worst fear is that, this was some baby-alpa-roll, or a trust sign, and
we
> failed..

> More info on Buster, he is very mild mannered.  His is VERY young though
> (16weeks).  He is really like a baby in some ways.  He always comes when
you
> call him, and loves to be touched by people and animals.  With his dog
> friends he is very ***, flipping over on his back all the time and
>***ing.  A funny thing was when he meet a 150pound Rottie named Bandit.
He
> was sooooo e***d to see, what he might have thought was god, that he
peeed
> while he danced around Bandits feet, and flipped right over on his back.

>***ing is crazy, he loves to*** if you go nose to nose :-)  I like it
> now, but I bet that will change when every time I am sitting we are nose
to
> nose....

> Rick

 
 
 

Thanks, and one more quick question

Post by Ludwig Smi » Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>Should have asked something controversial......would have gotten a better
>responce.

Or you just ask a second time.  Sometimes things get through, sometimes they
don't.  Sometimes people see the post, sometimes they don't.

Quote:


>> I wanted to thank all of you for the training advice.  I found a personal
>> trainer, we are starting in 2 weeks.  Baby is going to school :-).  Very
>> good trainer though!  We are getting work books, and a ton of other stuff.
>> She isn't as expensive as I thought, $40 for 2 hours, usually every 2 or 3
>> weeks.  She has used an Ecollar before but would prefer to start with out
>> one.  She has competed in Obedience, and Agility.

>> Question is, long:

>> After I was explained to what an AlphaRoll was it made me think.  So once
>> curiosity got the best of me (almost a week), I tried to roll buster over.
>> Not is an aggressive way, just with love, almost like I wanted to give him
>> love on his tummy (in other words, nothing like an alpha-roll).  He really
>> didn't like the idea.  I used love tactics really quickly to see if it was a
>> situation where he was just scared and needed a little reassurance, again
>> no luck.

<Snip>

Quote:
>> He does however offer it to us.  He will roll over on his back when we are
>> petting him some times..... now that I am getting paranoid, I can't remember
>> the last time, but it was probably some time over the weekend or late last
>> week.

>> So, I am wondering if this is any type of sign that I need to be aware of.
>> My worst fear is that, this was some baby-alpa-roll, or a trust sign, and we
>> failed..

From what you've written, you've hardly failed.  What you're seeing here is the
resistance to being 'physically forced' over into a *** position.  Any
normal dog is going to do that.  The fact that he does it willingly on his own
for you at times shows that he does trust you.  And that really is what
obedience and being 'Alpha' is all about - trust.

Rather than trying to force him on his back, it's better to teach him that good
things happen when he does lie on his back (or in any other ***
position).  One way to do this it to teach him to roll over.  

Another thing which the instructor should go over with you is on 'handling
exercises'.  This is where you are doing things to the puppy that a normal dog
would find uncomfortable, both mentally and physically.  Squeezing feet, looking
in ears, putting fingers in the mouth and additionally, putting the puppy in
*** positions like being on their back.  The key to this is that it is
not done in a confrontational manner.  It is done in a very happy manner while
petting and feeding the puppy special treats.  

You are in effect, teaching the dog trust.  Trust that when they put themselves
in a *** position around you, then nothing bad will happen to them.  One
of the regulars here, Avrama, has said that for her, doing the Alpha Roll on her
dog means that he flops over on his back for a belly rub.  That is how it should
be.


Dog FAQs:
http://www.moonsgarden.com/
rec.pets.dogs.info

 
 
 

Thanks, and one more quick question

Post by Jerry How » Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Quote:


> >Should have asked something controversial......would have gotten a better
> >responce.

> Or you just ask a second time.  Sometimes things get through, sometimes they
> don't.  Sometimes people see the post, sometimes they don't.



> >> I wanted to thank all of you for the training advice.  I found a personal
> >> trainer, we are starting in 2 weeks.  Baby is going to school :-).  Very
> >> good trainer though!  We are getting work books, and a ton of other stuff.
> >> She isn't as expensive as I thought, $40 for 2 hours, usually every 2 or 3
> >> weeks.  She has used an Ecollar before but would prefer to start with out
> >> one.  She has competed in Obedience, and Agility.

> >> Question is, long:

> >> After I was explained to what an AlphaRoll was it made me think.  So once
> >> curiosity got the best of me (almost a week), I tried to roll buster over.
> >> Not is an aggressive way, just with love, almost like I wanted to give him
> >> love on his tummy (in other words, nothing like an alpha-roll).  He really
> >> didn't like the idea.  I used love tactics really quickly to see if it was a
> >> situation where he was just scared and needed a little reassurance, again
> >> no luck.

> <Snip>

> >> He does however offer it to us.  He will roll over on his back when we are
> >> petting him some times..... now that I am getting paranoid, I can't remember
> >> the last time, but it was probably some time over the weekend or late last
> >> week.

> >> So, I am wondering if this is any type of sign that I need to be aware of.
> >> My worst fear is that, this was some baby-alpa-roll, or a trust sign, and we
> >> failed..

> From what you've written, you've hardly failed.  What you're seeing here is the
> resistance to being 'physically forced' over into a *** position.  Any
> normal dog is going to do that.  The fact that he does it willingly on his own
> for you at times shows that he does trust you.  And that really is what
> obedience and being 'Alpha' is all about - trust.

> Rather than trying to force him on his back, it's better to teach him that good
> things happen when he does lie on his back (or in any other ***
> position).  One way to do this it to teach him to roll over.

> Another thing which the instructor should go over with you is on 'handling
> exercises'.  This is where you are doing things to the puppy that a normal dog
> would find uncomfortable, both mentally and physically.  Squeezing feet, looking
> in ears, putting fingers in the mouth and additionally, putting the puppy in
> *** positions like being on their back.  The key to this is that it is
> not done in a confrontational manner.  It is done in a very happy manner while
> petting and feeding the puppy special treats.

> You are in effect, teaching the dog trust.  Trust that when they put themselves
> in a *** position around you, then nothing bad will happen to them.  One
> of the regulars here, Avrama, has said that for her, doing the Alpha Roll on her
> dog means that he flops over on his back for a belly rub.  That is how it should
> be.


> Dog FAQs:
> http://www.moonsgarden.com/
> rec.pets.dogs.info

No Ludwig, what you are teaching is might makes right, an easy task with a little
pup. What you are doing is violating the dog's trust and confidence, and teaching
the dog to beware of your every move. Sure, he'll submit, for now. When the dog gets
bigger, usually about nine months, they'll challenge the handler. If the heavy
handed methods work once again, that will postpone the problem till the dog is about
about eigh*** months. If that challenge is once again thwarted, there may be
another challenge at any time over the next five years, at which time the final
maturation stage of the dog will naturally cease the endless corrections and
substitute malbehaviors. Rick has had an opportunity to understand and learn, and
and he has chosen a dubious path. That's his business, he'll learn the hard way.

My business is calling your own ineptitude to your attention, once again, Ludwig.

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my
personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:

If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not
have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that
tells you to jerk your dog around, shock, or punish him in any manner, that
corrections are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher, or
that corrections are not harmful, or they can't train your dog to do what you
want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.

Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training

 http://www.moonsgarden.com/
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
                      -Francis Bacon-

There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and
make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can't hit the nail on
the head should, please, not hit at all.
                     -Nietzsche-

The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned
qualities.

The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs
brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow
exponentially, to make him smarter.

The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of
canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition,
constant corrections, and scolding.
                  -Jerry Howe-