"Force Fetching Is Never Completely Done"

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"Force Fetching Is Never Completely Done"

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:47:26

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Subject: Re: How to teach my dog to play fetch? -

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:41:27 GMT, "Matthew Au"


>I have a 14mth old lab.  How do I teach her how to play fetch?
> She is not very interested in toys (of any kind) I have not seen
> her fetch anything, how do I even begin teaching her?  How do
> I get her to be interested in say a ball or a frisbe?
>Thanks in advance,

Here's some excerpts from your force fetch page on k9web you
threatened to sue us for infringement for discussing. I'm looking
forward to having you demonstrate these advanced techniques
in front of a criminal judge and jury for felony animal abuse.

"Another excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics
Retrieving Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and
Alice Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics
electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training
techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of
they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a
promotion or
condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the
Training book is useful for the person without an electronic
as well.)


Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I
repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out,
someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for
obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is
avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn
a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete
control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but
require a more astute sense of timing than some other training
methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety
reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point,
easily done with a minimum of fuss.

Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and
leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his
as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog's
collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger
the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever
you want) Watch his mouth closely -- the moment he opens his
mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar,
PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session.

When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the
next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next
is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch)
necessary to get the dumbbell.

At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that
darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch.
Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That's his second
milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times
this session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5
or so each. That's still true.

Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get
Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It's not enough
for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to
getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of
limply reaches over and gets it, that's not what you want. If you
pinch him but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that's not
you want either. We're back to the visualization. What do you want
him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about
anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you
feel him pulling out of it to get that. That's his commitment. You
want to say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the
dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him
when he's made a good commitment -- this will help shape a speedy
response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an
experienced person around when you are doing this! It can
be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are
sitting there with a dog in your hands.

About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the
instant he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth.

Many people have problems getting the pinch right, either they do
not pinch enough, or they have a very stoic dog in which case a
collar may be needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also
some dogs are screamers, and if they find that they can stop the
pinching by screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique
just fine -- but not with the behavior you had in mind!

Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear

You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.

Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position),
the dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull
him back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern
will do
him good later.

The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them,
your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may
refuse --
keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.

Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.

As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will  get control of him (put him in a sit
with a firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the
dumbbell --
he can pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his
mouth any more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.

When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the

You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or
to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place the
dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch,
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't
dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back where
was, and pinch him to it.

There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So
transition to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet
long. With this you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the
dumbbell, teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog
the dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him
to pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb
that if he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.

Thoughts to Consider

Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted
step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go
and fix it.

But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!"


> Without recommending for or against the use of
> a collar in your situation,

Because that wouldn't look good?

> my comment would be

An out and out lie if you thought you was bright
enough to pull it off here...

> that if you do decide to use a collar,

It may make your dog vicious and get him DEAD,
but sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon
wouldn't admit to that either.

> do not do so on your own; find someone who is
> experienced in training with them (and whose
> dogs whose attitudes you like) to show you how.

An expert dog abuser like you, "don't let the dog
SCREAM, hold its muzzleclosed?"

> They are not intuitive to use.

You got to be ***, or learn from one...


> The primary use of electronic collars, in field retriever dogs,


To INFLICT PAIN and INTIMIDATE the dog to do
anything under fear of death.

> used to refine and extend an inbuilt motivation (retrieving)

Only an expert dog lover could NEED to HURT a
HUNTIN dog to make it HUNT.

> to an incredible level of finesse

Because you're an incompetent trainer, a callous

You've been banned ...

read more »


"Force Fetching Is Never Completely Done"

Post by Joe Canuc » Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:09:08

You've got to be the biggest moron on Usenet yet.

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                      -Joe Canuck


"Force Fetching Is Never Completely Done"

Post by The Puppy Wizar » Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:40:52


> You've got to be the biggest moron on Usenet yet.

> --
> "Its the bugs that keep it running."
>                                       -Joe Canuck

Here's The Puppy Wizard's competition:

Can you tell the TRUTH from a LIE?:

          > > > Jerome Bigge writes:
          > > > I do know that hitting, hurting
          > > > your dog will often make the
          > > > dog either aggressive or a fear
          > > > biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:

          > > And neither does anyone else,
          > > Jerome.  No matter
          > > what Jerry Howe states.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who commented
that his bed time calming technique was quite similar?

          > > You're scary Marilyn.

          > > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
          > > individual.  I feel very sorry for her
          > > and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

          > > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
          > > doubt, please provide a quote (an
          > > original quote, not from one of Jerry
          > > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
          > > shows a regular poster promoting or
          > > using an abusive form of training.


          > > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.


"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What  does this mean?"

Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.

"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray
one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue
your normal behavior."

You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

  --Mike Dufort
    author of the zero selling book
    "Courteous Canines"

You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?

Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?

Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!"
And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach.

Oh, THANKS, sinofa***...

  "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
  something you twisted out of context,
  because you are full of bizarro manure."

           "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
           helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
           Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
           you to progress to striking them more
           sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
           expert trainer.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT

        "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
        Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
        With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
        discoverer of ***ISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

            "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
            things is something you twisted out of
            context, because you are full of bizarro

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the
chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all
it like a***d ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his
ears, or
leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch ***collar or pop him in
snout with the heel of your palm.



> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it.  Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
> Uh, Frank?  Who do you see denying anything?
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.

          > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

          > > When you compare using sound and
          > > praise to solve a problem with using
          > > shock collars,***, and punishment
          > >  how can you criticize the use of sound?

          > There's nothing more to be said, then.
          > You've made up your mind.

          > But you've impressed me by mentioning
          > that you're a professor with 30 years of
          > experience.

          >  So, can you cite some examples of
          > people recommending "shock collars,
          >***, and punishment"?


          > --
          > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?

matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.

Isn't that true, Marilyn?

Of course not, but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
 professora gingold.

          > >Di,

          > I don't believe you mentioned a particular
          > kind of training. If you are interested in
          > training retrieval behavior than do
          > consider our own Amy Dahl's:

          > The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
          > Well-Mannered,  Obedient and
          > Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
          > Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

           "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
           Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
           Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
           Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"

LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a *** of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.

"I don't see why anyone would want to ***or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.


          > just $17.95 at Amazon.com.

          > (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
          > few regulars here who are either ill-
          > tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
          > --Marshall

Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

           "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
           we have trained require much more
           frequent and heavy application of pressure
          (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

          This is continued resistance to your
          increasing authority, and the job is
          not done until it is  overcome

          Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
          wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
          less tractable dogs may require you to
          progress to striking them more

read more »