moraility question quick opinion.

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moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Frank Keoug » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00



Hi all

if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
to walk, he can be force fed.

The vet wants to put him to sleep, i am unsure, outside of weakness he seems
okay.
The vet is constantly amazed that he is alive another day. Right now he is
drinking water
although laying down.

what is the opinion of the many. would you put him to sleep or would you do
more like
hospice care, and await for him to pass away at home ?

Thanks

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Michael Blis » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


The first I think a question need be asked of yourself. If you were in that
position {that of the dog's] what would you want??  Think about it before
you answer. You can't get out of bed, have a hard time peeing or excreting,
are in constant discomfort if not pain, cannot go for a walk, ride your
bike, entertain friends, feel you are a burden to your family, etc.
Next, I feel that if a dog ceases to be a dog, then it is time.
Meaning=to run, jump, play, bark, roll over, go for walks, beg at the table,
wag it's tail, scratch a flea on the head, etc.

To think that a dog will fade away naturally at home - is not always the
case. Death doesn't always come so easy. Sometimes there are seizures,
spasms, loosing control of your bodily functions [how humiliating for a
housetrained animal that knows better], extreme discomfort and most often
pain.

Common Sense is needed here, not selfishness.
Just my 2 cents. You asked.

Quote:

>Hi all

>if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
>excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
>to walk, he can be force fed.

>The vet wants to put him to sleep, i am unsure, outside of weakness he
seems
>okay.
>The vet is constantly amazed that he is alive another day. Right now he is
>drinking water
>although laying down.

>what is the opinion of the many. would you put him to sleep or would you do
>more like
>hospice care, and await for him to pass away at home ?

>Thanks

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Elizabeth B. Nai » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
> excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
> to walk, he can be force fed.

Personally... I have always based the decision on whether or not there is
any suffering to "put an end to".  Some old, tired pets are simply old
and tired -- they aren't suffering and they don't appear to be "missing"
their previous good health.  I have had two very ill cats, one with FIP
and one with a bone marrow cancer whose name I have forgotten, and we
refused to have them put to sleep when they were just, well, TIRED.  We
did educate ourselves with the FIP cat (the only one where we suspected
what was involved early on -- the other cat was only diagnosed
postmortem) as to how the disease might progress, and what signs would
indicate to us that suffering or discomfort was imminent.

No one else can make the decision for you.  In your place I would try to
determine how serious the "discomfort" is... if it's no more than the
slight "creakiness" of an older dog, I would not consider it a euthanasia
situation (and I would treasure the time we had left together, making
sure that the dog got his favorite treats and whatever favorite
activities and people he's well enough to do and see).  But it can be
hard to tell since dogs cannot say "this really hurts, but I'm being
stoic about it".  I would talk to the vet more and try to determine if
the vet thinks the dog is in pain, or if the vet is simply recommending
euthanasia because the condition is ultimately incurable.

Neither way is easy for the owner.  But, if we wanted "easy" we'd be
better off not getting dogs at all...

 --
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Elizabeth B. Naime            *   Email may be forwarded and/or posted

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moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Feingo » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Personally, I would only do it if the dog was in lots of pain or if
the dog has gone completely senile.  I see nothing wrong with giving
the dog pain medication and letting him die a natural death at home
when the time comes.

It's funny to me how people are so quick to euthanize their animals
just because they are unable to walk, are weak or have  become
incontinent but those same people would consider it inhumane or ***
to do the same thing to a human in an equivalent situation.   My
german shepherd died at home when he was 15 years old.  The last
1-2 years of his life, he could hardly walk and he was incontinent
towards the end.  However, we didn't mind carrying him outside, he
layed on a shower curtain that we would rinse off, his mind was still
sharp and he still seemed to enjoy being around people.  Towards the
end, he loved being hand fed -- especially the chicken and rice,
macaroni and cheese and his other favorite foods that we treated him
to since we knew that his time was very limited!  I think that
after giving us so many years of pleasure as the "world's greatest
dog"  nursing him while he was dying during his old age was the least
we could do.   However, if he had been in great pain or agony or if
he was completely senile, then I think we would have "put him out of
his misery".   To me, though, not walking and being weak isn't misery.

Just my 2 cents,
-Susan

Quote:

>Hi all
>if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
>excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
>to walk, he can be force fed.
>The vet wants to put him to sleep, i am unsure, outside of weakness he seems
>okay.
>The vet is constantly amazed that he is alive another day. Right now he is
>drinking water
>although laying down.
>what is the opinion of the many. would you put him to sleep or would you do
>more like
>hospice care, and await for him to pass away at home ?
>Thanks

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by April Qui » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


: if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
: excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
: to walk, he can be force fed.

My own way of determining what to do is to ask myself whether my dog
still has any joy left in his life. Is there anything he still looks
forward to? Or is living just a burden to him?

If he has no joy and I still opt to keep him alive, then I recognize that
I'm just keeping him alive for my own sake - because I can't bear the
thought of not having him in my life. IMO, the most loving, selfless
thing you can do is let your dog go in spite of the pain it gives you. I
let my first dog die on her own of kidney failure, and I regret it to
this day. In life, she was a joyful, loving, happy little dog. In the
week it took her to die, she was miserable. Not in pain - just sick. She
had no interest left in life, but I made her live it until her body gave
up. I learned my lesson, and five years later I held my next dog (whose
heart was failing even after we'd tried everything to get it going again)
while the veterinarian gave her the injection that allowed her to let go
of a life she no longer loved. It just about killed me, but I have no
regrets.

April with Levi, Caper, and Epic, the Border Collie Hurricanes

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by munskin » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


I faced the long goodbye last November with my 19 yo terrier/poodle mix.  I
wanted very much for him to die quietly at home.  He was so weak, I knew it
would be soon, but he lasted and lasted.  I was sure that I did NOT want him
euthanized at the vet.  I did not want his final thought to be that nervous
fear that comes the moment you walk in the door.  My vet was having a busy
day, and was unable for a house-call, so I drove him over to the office (he
loved riding in the car).  The vet came to the car to administer the
injection, and in a moment, the lingering ended.
Frank, only you can make the decision, but if you decide on intervention,
please look for a vet who can make a house call, so your beloved pet can say
goodbye surrounded by love and warmth and familiar surroundings.  As
terribly as I miss him, I do not regret my decision.  I ache for you.

Quote:
> Hi all

> if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
> excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly
able
> to walk, he can be force fed.

> The vet wants to put him to sleep, i am unsure, outside of weakness he
seems
> okay.
> The vet is constantly amazed that he is alive another day. Right now he is
> drinking water
> although laying down.

> what is the opinion of the many. would you put him to sleep or would you
do
> more like
> hospice care, and await for him to pass away at home ?

> Thanks

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by JB » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
>Personally, I would only do it if the dog was in lots of pain or if
>the dog has gone completely senile.  >german shepherd died at home when he

was 15 years old.  >to since we knew that his time was very limited!  I
think that
Quote:
>after giving us so many years of pleasure as the "world's greatest
>dog"  nursing him while he was dying during his old age was the least
>we could do.   However, if he had been in great pain or agony or if
>he was completely senile, then I think we would have "put him out of
>his misery".   To me, though, not walking and being weak isn't misery.

Good points all. I firmly believe that your dog will "let you know" when it
is time.
Taking care of him is part of honoring his life and what he means.

jb

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Bulbasau » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00



: just because they are unable to walk, are weak or have  become
: incontinent but those same people would consider it inhumane or ***
: to do the same thing to a human in an equivalent situation.   My

I don't though. I think it is horrible that we don't let a human who can
say please end it now yet we force that human to live. Problem is, I do
have a problem with putting an animal to sleep because the animal cannot
make that choice. But then I also realize that by "letting it live" I
am still imposing the choice on the animal (it could want to die for all I
know).I don't know though, a really weak dog I don't see how they cannot
feel that they are not well, and even though they might be happy that
people are around the horror of knowing something is wrong and not knowing
it can be terrible (and yes I might be humanizing the animal but I do
believe animals can feel and feel pain, fear, and even realize that they
are dieing. But I think it could be worse for them since they don't know
what is causing it).

: his misery".   To me, though, not walking and being weak isn't misery.

Maybe.. unfortuantely none of us can totally see int he dog's mind. As I
said it is a personal choice, what you feel is best, but one thing to add.
The guy also noted they had to force feed the animal. The animals are
feeling something if they won't even eat without being forced. I don't
know.. my personal feelings is that there is a point even if they are not
showing visible pain where for me I would feel cruel forcing them to live.

Tigress

--
These opinions are mine, not those of Georgia Tech.  It is the opinion of
Tech that I should be writing a paper on some topic or another.
    |\    _,,,---,,_          Tigress
   /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_     http://www.moonsgarden.com/

 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)         Cat drawn by Felix Lee

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Bulbasau » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00



: if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
: excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
: to walk, he can be force fed.

Thing is, how can you tell that he is not in a lot of pain (and a lot of
discomfort can be just as bad. I mean that dog probably does not know what
is happening to it, could be really panicking inside, even though that is
not pain it still is a horrible thing to deal with). If he cannot walk
well, and he is not going to improve, I hate to say it, you might want to
put him to sleep. Of coures it is a personal decision, and I know for
myself I hate making that decision (I hate having to choose for the
animal... just wish that the animal could tell us if they would rather be
put to sleep or live the rest of the life they have left).
Basically, I would consider that being barely able to walk probably
denotes that the dog is probably not feeling all too good at all and if it
is only going to get worse, I would definitely say think about putting him
to sleep. Specially if you have to force feed him to eat. As I said, it is
a personal decision and one that is really hard to make (I am very glad
that my cat made it easier on me and just didn't wake up from the
surgery... I had to make the decision to put my dog to sleep and it is an
incredibly ***e, very very hard. Even so I still like I betrayed the
dog even though I could see his life wasn't going to get better. I am not
going to lie to you and say you will probably feel good about your
decisiion, I know I myself will probably never feel good about teh
decision no matter how much I know it was the right thing to do, knowing
and feeling are two different things. Good luck, I really feel for you).

Tigress

--
These opinions are mine, not those of Georgia Tech.  It is the opinion of
Tech that I should be writing a paper on some topic or another.
    |\    _,,,---,,_          Tigress
   /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_     http://www.moonsgarden.com/

 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)         Cat drawn by Felix Lee

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Bulbasau » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00



: hard to tell since dogs cannot say "this really hurts, but I'm being
: stoic about it".  I would talk to the vet more and try to determine if

*nod* Cats are notorious for this. If I only knew about my cat... She
acted fine, ate fine, and the only visible problem we saw was that she
couldn't breath well and was weak (she could still walk but she seemed
very lethargic, not even enough energy to swat at another cat who came
near her, and she hated the other cats and would always swipe at them
when they came near). WEll, when the surgery happened (The vet didn't even
forsee there to be that much damage), there was a whole lot more damage,
enough to say I am sure she was in a lot of pain but just wasn't showing
it (for cats at least it is an instinct, showing pain is weakness so they
will hide it best as possible).

: Neither way is easy for the owner.  But, if we wanted "easy" we'd be
: better off not getting dogs at all...

*nod*
Or any pets period. I still wish animals could tell us what they would
prefer.

Tigress

--
These opinions are mine, not those of Georgia Tech.  It is the opinion of
Tech that I should be writing a paper on some topic or another.
    |\    _,,,---,,_          Tigress
   /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress

 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)         Cat drawn by Felix Lee

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Mark Townse » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00




Quote:

>Personally, I would only do it if the dog was in lots of pain or if
>the dog has gone completely senile.  I see nothing wrong with giving
>the dog pain medication and letting him die a natural death at home
>when the time comes.

This is the one and only way when at all possible providing the dog is
not suffering a lot of pain, in the last ten years I have "lost" seven
dogs in total five died naturally at home the other two I had the vet
KILL because there was no other option.
It is only the two I had the vet KILL that I feel guilty about even
now after nearly two years have passed.
Mark .
 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Mark Townse » Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>In my own case I would consider putting an animal sleep ONLY if that animal was in
>pain and couldn't lead their normal lifestyle.

Depends just what you mean by "normal lifestyle" you do not kill a
human being just because he has a broken back and cannot go out
anymore or move around.The pain issue is a different matter and is
unrelated to the "normal life" style question.
Mark
 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by willia » Fri, 09 Apr 1999 04:00:00



Quote:

> Hi all

> if you had a dog that 15 years old, has serve liver disfunction, is not in
> excessive pain, but maybe alot of discomfort. He is quite weak, bearly able
> to walk, he can be force fed.

> The vet wants to put him to sleep, i am unsure, outside of weakness he seems
> okay.
> The vet is constantly amazed that he is alive another day. Right now he is
> drinking water
> although laying down.

> what is the opinion of the many. would you put him to sleep or would you do
> more like
> hospice care, and await for him to pass away at home ?

> Thanks

This is a touchy subject that might vary from person to person.

In my own case I would consider putting an animal sleep ONLY if that animal was in
pain and couldn't lead their normal lifestyle.

The idea of pain and the inability to function would lead me (only speaking for myself)
to wonder about the quality of their life.

Unlike humans you can't tell any animal what is wrong. They are confused and
scared at these times.

Would I be being selfish to hang on to the animal or compassionate in letting the
animal go quietly?

We all would have to ask that for ourselves.

Marcia

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Lynn Kosmako » Fri, 09 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> Depends just what you mean by "normal lifestyle" you do not kill a
> human being just because he has a broken back and cannot go out
> anymore or move around.The pain issue is a different matter and is
> unrelated to the "normal life" style question.

There are a lot of other factors.  If you cannot provide the kind
of constant care the enables an immobile dog to be comfortable, that
discomfort and loss of dignity/mobility becomes yet another burden
to the dog.  There's also the problem of a degenerating condition
that can only get worse.  I'll admit that I've held on to a loved
dog beyond the point where I should have let him go.  That selfishness
on my part caused him unnecessary pain and a needlessly horrible
death.

Lynn K.

 
 
 

moraility question quick opinion.

Post by Elizabeth B. Nai » Fri, 09 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Quote:


> : hard to tell since dogs cannot say "this really hurts, but I'm being
> : stoic about it".  I would talk to the vet more and try to determine if

> *nod* Cats are notorious for this. If I only knew about my cat... She

Cats are I think even harder than dogs... not only because they can be
very stoic, but also because as a species they have a reputation both for
sudden inexplicable turns for the worse, AND sudden inexplicable
recoveries.  It is hard to give up on a cat when you don't know for sure
what is wrong, not only because we hate to give up in the first place,
but because we all know stories of cats who were dreadfully ill and
miraculously recovered.  This was a big factor with Krell, the cat with
bone marrow cancer;  we didn't know exactly what it was, so couldn't
determine if he had "a chance" for recovery or not.

Quote:
> : Neither way is easy for the owner.  But, if we wanted "easy" we'd be
> : better off not getting dogs at all...

> *nod*
> Or any pets period. I still wish animals could tell us what they would
> prefer.

Don't we all (wish they could tell us).  Although we'd still have to
decide for them ... I think dogs live in the here-and-now and really
can't comprehend that things will be different later on.  So a dog
recovering from a hip replacement surgery might say "this is awful, I
don't want to be like this" because he can't understand that in 6 months
he'll feel better than he ever did before, and he will continue to be
active without pain for years to come.  "Still thou art bless'd, compared
wi' me/ The present only touches thee/ But och!  I backward cast my ee/
On propsects drear/ And forward, where I canna see/I guess, an' fear."  
(Robert Burns, with spelling mistakes, misquotations and line break
errors solely by moi)

--
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Elizabeth B. Naime            *   Email may be forwarded and/or posted

CUR 70 / FUR 212              *       * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
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