Catch 22, Dog Abusers Re: Time Outs Can Work

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Catch 22, Dog Abusers Re: Time Outs Can Work

Post by Jerry How » Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:05:20



HOWEDY lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn,

Quote:


>>Yes, ***ia, time outs *can* work. :}

No. That'll increase anxiety...

Quote:
> Yep.

You ***and shock dogs.

Quote:
> People seem to stuggle for a good example
> of P-, negative punishment,

Yeah... there ain't none, EXXXEPT the punishment
The Puppy Wizzzard been dishin out here abouts.

Quote:
> removing something to diminish a behavior.

That'll increase anxiety.

Quote:
> Time outs are a good example,

INDEED. We could demonstrate that real EZ.

Quote:
> as is turning away from a dog who jumps up to greet you.

That so? Ever hear of the visual ***reflex?

Quote:
> Lynn K.

Your pal lt joel walton took a pretty solid smack upside his
head from The Puppy Wizzzard for tellin folks to pull away
from the dog when IT jumps on them, cause that triggers the
dog to want to bite...

HOWEDY Disciple Paulie,




 > > From what I've seen so far of dog training,

leah's experiences with dog training have been nuthin but
jerking and *** and neck twisting and crating her WON
dog who'd BIT her 4 times... and she's been bitten TWICE
at "work" at pest mart neck twisting and "teaching restraint
techniques" to stranger's dogs... to enhance the bond between
dog abuser and dog...

 > > I have to admit that using aversives usually

Hurts, intimidates, and makes an enemy of your dog.

 > > seems to train a dog FASTER.

Yeah... that's HOWE COME leah's been bitten 4 times
by her own dog and twice by stranger's dogs at pest
mart.

 > > Using rewards works very well

NO. That's ridiculous. Dogs do not work for credit. Rewards
usurp the trainer's authority and teach greed and increase
anxiety... like HOWE COME leah got bit on her nose...

 > > and very quickly on many dogs, and on others it doesn't.

That's idiocy. It doesn't work on SOME dogs because it SCARES
THEM. Dogs DO NOT share food, they steal scraps and run for
cover, and eat it with their back to the wall in a heightened state
of alert... When it does SEEM to work, it actually DISTRACTS
the dog from the lesson and prevents the dog understanding
the command in context.

 > > The reward-based trainer

Uses food bribes because they can't make the dog interested
in THEM, because they don't know HOWE to condition a dog
to respond to praise...

 > > has less power

Power? Like the Nazi Axis?

 > > to motivate a dog who is nonchalant about praise,

Meaning HOWER expert dog lovers do not understand
basic conditioning exercises as taught in your FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual.

 > > food

Food has no bearing on training, except as a DISTRACTION.
Unless you can control EVERY BIT of food in the world.

 > > and toys.

Toys can motivate the dog, but that's appealing to greed
and distracts the dog from the lesson...

 > >  Using aversives

Makes dogs aggressive shy and gets SOME of them DEAD.

 > > certainly does place more immediate power in the trainer's hands.

Power? TO FORCE CONTROL of a critter you CANNOT CONTROL
when you're not standing there ready to HURT or bribe someMOORE.

 > There is another way.

Yeah. But HOWER dog lovers don't want to learn HOWE
to handle and train a dog without forcing them, cause that
takes away all their NAZI like power.

 > The first thing you teach a dog is pay attention to
 > you any time you ask and every time you ask,

Right. That just takes a few minutes if you understand
conditioning and timing, using a little praise and savvy.

 > when you call it's name it's looking straight at you,
 > when you say "good dog" it looks straight at you,
 > teach that by using voice, sound and gestures only,
 > no treats no physical contact.

Right...

 > Then you teach the recall so it comes to you everytime

Takes a couple 15 minutes sessions to train a 100%
reliable come command as a conditioned reflex.

 > and then you establish the family pack hierarchy with you
 > firmly at the top, no question.

Right. The entire process takes about WON HOWER, maybe less.

 > The recall is really important because you use that as a default
 > when all else fails.

Right. That's HOWE COME we get 100% total non physical control,
nearly instantly, maybe FASTER.

 > Lets say you ask the dog for a "heel" and it refuses 4
 > requests, then I ask for a "come", the dog can't resist
 > the come,

Right, because it's installed as a conditioned reflex.. not a
choice, not a response to a bribe, JUST BECAUSE the dog
has been CONDITIONED to respond without thinking.... just
reflex, cause that's just HOWE it IS.

 > it's ingrained into it so it has to come.

Right. Most of HOWE dog lovers ***and shock and bribe
their dogs for months and years and often NEVER get a reliable
come command as The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve in an HOWER,
maybe less. Maybe it'll take four HOWERS, if you got a problem
with a dog that doesn't trust you. NO PROBLEM.

 > The dog realises it has 2 options, either "heel" or "come",
 > since sitting in front of me after a recall is a ***
 > position the dog will choose to "heel" which is an "equal" position.

Right. Everything got to be set up so we're not pressuring the
dog to try to be independent, but not allowing him to be "free"
either. Kinda like makin a move on a foxy young thing... not too
much of this and not too much of that and you get what you're
lookin for...

 > That's an example of what I mean,

Yeah, sorta...

 > no treats or punishment just 2 alternatives.

Right. Add a little intrigue, allow some distance and freedom,
add some sweet talk, a little conditioning, and you got it all.

 > But those first 3 things are vital for it to work, attention,
 > recall and hierarchy.  With those 3 things training can be easy.

Same same for puttin moves on a foxy young thing... eh Disciple Paulie?

 > > 1.  The relationship with the owner.

The Puppy Wizzzard sez that goes out the goddamned window the
first time you use fear force or aversives scolding or punishment in
any way, any HOWE.

 > > Granted that the dog who fears retribution will adore his owner.

No. That's FEAR... not adoration. That's HOWE COME dogs attack
their families... cause SOMEBODY HURT and INTIMIDATED them.

 > > But he doesn't trust that his owner won't *hurt him.

Or spray aversives in their face or scruff shake or chin chuck him...

 > > The positive punisher

Can't have that noMOORE. That's the kind of doubletalk that
keeps HOWER lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards HURTIN
and KILLIN dogs and tellin us they're TRAINERS...

 > > has demonstrated to the dog that he absolutely *will* hurt him.

Yeah. So leah's gonna HURT the dog HALF as much as she'd LIKE.

 > > A good handler with a biddable dog

Here on rpdb "biddable" means FEARFUL of gettin HURT someMOORE.

 > > rarely administers corrections.

Cause the dog is FEARFUL of gettin HURT someMOORE.

 > >  But most of JQP (the people we "trainers" are trying to educate)

BWWEAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

leah is SO outta business. The Puppy Wizzzard is fixin to drop
the hammer on the head of pest mart... and make him an offer
he can't refuse. WATCH.

 > > are not good handlers.

Because HOWER exxxperts keep fillin their heads with LIES.

 > >  And many of their dogs are not biddable.

That's HOWE COME leah teaches "restraint techniques" to
strange dogs at the pest store...

 > > How many times have you seen people schooled in leash corrections

YOU MEAN PEOPLE WHO JERK AND ***DOGS?

That's not SCHOOLED, unless Marquis de Sade is teachin...

 > > constantly jerking on their dogs' collars and yelling at them?

Yeah? Whatever happened to intermittent rewards?

NOBODY sez consistency means consistent like in, say, consistency,
or you'd NEED to HURT the dog EVERY TIME it does BAD or you'll
REWARD the dog BY NOT HURTING IT EVERY TIME.

Catch22, dog abusers...

 > >  I see it a *lot* in the store from people who have been to those
 > > types of classes.

The types of classes leah has been through with her off duty
pest mart trainers who taught Madigan to bite her 4 times...

 > > The dog loves the owner,

NO, FEARS... remember? BIDDABLE MEANS FEARFUL.

 > > but he also fears him and has lost a level of trust with him.

Yeah... so you'll reinstate the TRUST by HURTING the dog CONSISTENTLY.

THAT'S THE STATE OF THE ART OF DOG TRAINING.

THAT'S HOWE COME HOWER EXXXPERTS ARE OUTTA BUSINESS.

 > > *I'm using "hurt" in a very general sense.

The Puppy Wizzzard don't LIKE hurtin at all, general or
otherWIZE.

 > >  It ranges from doing something unpleasant to the dog,

You'd do that because?

 > > like squirting water in his face,

Yeah, like that. Or like spraying BINACA in a dog's eyes
or jerking and *** IT on a pronged spiked pinch ***
collar or GL or shocking or spraying citronella in its face
and locking it in a box and pinching and twisting ITS ears
toes and ***... Ooops! Almost forgot, nobody's dogs
got *** around here, cause everybody's afraid of ***.

 > > to beating him.

Nobody does that here.

 > > I understand that we're talking about punishments that
 > > deliver hurt on the bottom end of the scale.

Oh. Like HOWER good professor dermer's scruff shake and scream
no into its face and lock it in a box for ten minutes to reflect on RESPECT.

 > The relationship with the dog in your charge is paramount.

Right. That's HOWE COME they neuter and lock IT in a box
and let IT cry till it learns to be quiet.

 > But as I said earlier I really believe the family pack hierarchy is
 > extreme in importance.

Right. That's taught when the puppy is locked in the box
and intentionally ignored for crying... like HOWER good
professor did to his kid to teach IT to sleep alone.

 > Nothing can really happen or start flowing until that is established.

Right. That's HOWE COME the GL and pronged spiked pinch ***collar.

 > It's amazing how many people think they are the "Alpha"

Right, it's all done with body language and a "uh uh" and a motherly glance.

 > (I hate that word but I'll use it) but aren't.

Well, let's not insigate The Puppy Wizzzard...

 > I was one of them,

Yeah, you was doin what the exxperts taught you.

 > fortunately I realised it

That's on account of nuthin was working. The Puppy Wizzzard
doesn't take it well if a dog isn't doin his best... it's a BIG problem
when WON of The Puppy Wizzzard's dogs fail, cause that means
the people aren't doin what they sez they're doin, cause all dog
behavior problems are caused by mishandling.

 > and tooks steps to get to the top.

Right, just takes a little ingenuity.

 > Once I did obnoxious dog behaviours stopped

Nearly instantly...

 > and training become soooo much easier.

Nearly AUTOMAGICKALLY.

 > I would thought it would be important to teach people how
 > to establish and maintain that hierarchy before anything else.

EXXXACTLY. It's the first thing taught in The Puppy Wizzzard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual...

 > > 2.  Wrong method for the wrong dog.

A dog is a dog. If it's the wrong method for ANY dog
then it's the wrong method for ALL dogs.

 > > What happens if a dog doesn't respond to rewards?

Dogs do not respond to rewards. So called rewards
after the fact are meaningless, like punishment after
the fact. You got to catch the dog THINKIN to reward him.

 >  The rewards have to get better.

That's IDIOCY. The rewards don't work cause they are
not given at the time of the THOUGHT of the command.

You can't reward sumpthin the dog ain't thinkin...

 > > The job becomes much harder for the trainer.

Yeah. That's HOWE COME you got to quit misadvising folks.

 > > He has to get very creative to discover what will motivate
 > > the dog and how to use that motivation.

That's where the shock collar comes in handy.

 > >  The dog is blissfully unaware of the agida he's causing his
 > > trainer/handler.

NO. That's HOWE COME the dog is doin it...

 > > But what happens if a dog isn't responding to punishments?

What happens when The Puppy Wizzzard gets LAWS passed
to throw lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards in the mental
wards of state criminal corrections facilities???

 > > Don't they have to become harsher?

Not if they're done RIGHT the first couple dozen times.

 > When fearful, a dog has a choice between fight or flight.

Yeah... leah's been bit four time by her own dog and twice
at pest mart, teaching RESTRAINT techniques.

 > > What if he chooses fight?

That's HOWE COME HOWER good professor lying doc
scruff shake dermer recommends koehler.

 > > What can happen to that dog's perception of the handler?

You mean with harsher corrections, like for advanced training?

 > > Or people in general?

Well, sometimes a dog has a genetic defect... that they
can't take much MOORE than gentle unpleasantness...
and turn on their handlers and family and GET DEAD.

 > > How *do* you subdue a dog with a hair-trigger temper?

The Puppy Wizzzard has covered all that in your FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method manual... it's at the beginning... under
leash handling.

 > > Other than increasing his level of fear or breaking his spirit?

Yeah...

 > > In general, I believe that a dog trained with positive reinforcement
 > > would have a deeper level of trust in people and a less stressful
 > > outlook on his world than a dog trained with positive punishment.

In general, and mostly with the unpleasant, less harsh punishments.

 > > I'll sacrifice speed of training for that.

BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

leah is a imbecile, a liar, a hypocrite, and a dog abuser.

 > > It may take more patience, persistence, and consistency to
 > > get the reliability,

You mean to otuwit the cunning of the domestic puppy
dog and train IT without HURTIN HIM???

 > but it's worth the effort IMHO.

Yeah... as opposed to NEARLY INSTANTLY, as Disciple Paulie
described he got WONCE he quit HURTING his dog and followed
the INSTRUCTIONS in his FREE copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual?

Now get the heel off HOWER forums.


 > I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
 > not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her loss.

 > I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you
 > write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a
 > shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay
 > home. Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping
 > my dogs in their own yard.

 > Once I started using the e-fence...well, then my concern became
 > how to keep them from running off for days on end.

 > I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti-
 > shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.

 > I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now
 > <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained,
 > doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
 > the time. IOW a great companion and friend.

 > Thanks Jerry!

=====================


 > We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
 > Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no
 > collars.

 > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to
 > come back in the yard and would run for days. The
 > last time, Peach didn't come back home.

 > I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to
 > train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
 > minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the
 > yard.

 > She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her
 > from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we
 > walk around the yard.

 > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
 > e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
 > then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an
 > electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
 > The price was too high:-(
 > ~misty

============


 > I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
 > dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
 > I do not know what started the problem  but he came
 > aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
 > snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
 > and could play with any dog.  He was well socialized
 > ad I took him with me everywhere.

 > At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
 > Test except he could let me leave him.  I had used
 > clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
 > it was not working on his aggression problem.

 > I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
 > trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
 > They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
 > and tried to climb on my head to help him.  they then
 > suggested a shock collar I knew  this approach was not
 > working as he was becoming more aggressive.

 > I took him to an animal behaviorist with  Ph.D. 400 miles
 > away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
 > on the fearful canine.  I tried another trainer who tried to
 > use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.

 > I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
 > ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
 > LEASH", ETC looking for help.

 > We finally went to Purdue University Small Animal Behavior
 > Clinic and they said he had fear aggression, punishment
 > would not work, use the gentle leader and when out walking
 > and he got stressed have the people stop until he could get
 > in control using treats,and work on clicker training.

 > At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
 > the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
 > would not come when I called him and would run away when I
 > tried to catch him.  I was afraid to walk him even in the
 > neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
 > hasn't trained her dog"

 > I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
 > were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were
 > so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I
 > should give up on him and kill him but they would say  "You
 > have to realize he is dangerous and you are responsible for
 > him."

You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.

 > As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
 > going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
 > Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
 > Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.

 > He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
 > not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

 > The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
 > I had been working for 18 month!

 > Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
 > from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy"  Next
 > I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
 > blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
 > can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

 > I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
 > -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
 > looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
 > on by.

 > When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
 > me like "you must be out of your mind"

 > The results can make a believer!!!Three weeks since
 > beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked
 > him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with
 > many dogs.

 > He just seemed to not notice any one.

 > When people talked to him or ask his name he would
 > look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
 > I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
 > enjoy life out in public.

 > If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
 > was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
 > and had to be killed.  Through all this he never growled
 > at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any sign of
 > aggression with me.

 > My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
 > dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
 > out force, pain, food or anything but sound  and praise!!!!
 > I know most people would have given up on him a long time
 > ago but he was and is my life.  Solving the problem was EZ
 > but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

 > I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

===================

----------- Message -----
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives.  I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have.  The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.

We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great.  I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades!  I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose.  He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times  I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.

I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-

- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.

They also suggested the possibilty of using ***-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

-------------------------------------

Quote:
----- Original Message -----


Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

 > Hi Jerry,
 > Send the post to whom ever you wish to. Believe me I will keep you
 > updated. I got to tell you His amazing progress almost makes me cry.
 > Kay Pierce

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

 > Jerry,
 > I started Hunter on his training using your manual and training method.
 > What a marked difference in just a few hours. I had him in my van and
just
 > using the sound with his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog
 > when he started looking like he was going to bark at a car worked great.

 > He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a spot that we had used
 > years ago to train, Jerry I have hope that I can have my happy dog back
 > soon. And  not this tense unhappy creature I live with now.

 > He was so happy today. I am looking forward to getting the machine
 > so that he can stay that way.

 > Thank you,
 > Kay Pierce

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress

 > Hello Jerry,
 > Hunter and I started working the recall and family
 > pack exercise today. On leash and in the house
 > he has a perfect recall. And I think he really started
 > to relax and enjoy himself I swear he was laughing.

 > I had taught him to go to  the heel position when he
 > comes to me years ago. And over the past few months
 > I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into
 > the heel position each  and every time without me saying
 > a word to him about it. He has never bounced like that before.

 > I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and
 > pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his
 > regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more.

 > As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained
 > my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques.
 > When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results.

 > Your method takes positive training to the next level and
 > should really be used by all trainers who call themselves trainers.

 > My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he thinks
 > he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll do anything.

 > As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next.

 > Thank you so much,
 > Kay Pierce

===============

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Minor setback

HOWEDY Kay,

 > Hi Jerry,
 > I think I had a minor setback today with Hunter.

No problem. We can fix it. Some "setbacks"are anticipated.

 > We were trying to do the heel the way it is outlined in your manual.

Yes, it's not an EZ exercise, and it takes three or four short sessions
to get the feel for it. If it's confusing, that's GOOD. It's supposed to
feel "wrong" till you "get it right" and then you'll know what you're
striving for. It'll come to you, just let it.

 > I had done something wrong my poor boy was getting awfully confused.

As stated. No problem. Confusion is good, means they're thinking.
He's probably got a lot to think about since your methods have
changed. I expect dogs like this to "stall" and not work for a few
sessions too, don't worry about it. He's testing you for consistency
about not being corrected for mistakes. Just follow the method.

 > We took a break and worked on the recall.

You'll know when the recall is right cause you'll see the reflex
and he'll respond before even thinking about it. Should have
that down pretty good by now I'd expect. On the outside
you'd have a perfect come if you did the H&C and FPLX
and come in four different places, four times each, totalling
about four hours.

 > I think mostly i have to be trained as well as my dog.

Sounds to me like you're doin fine. Don't deviate from the
techniqe, it all pulls together.

 > the hardest part is getting used to holding the leash the way
 > that you say I should.

That's crucial. The handling of the lead is usually our first
mistake that triggers the dog. Takes most folks a few days
to get comfortable with it, just like the heeling pattern. Once
you have the feel for it you'll know and it'll become second
nature. It's the first thing I look for when working with or
watching a handler.

 > Also could you let me know which sites you are posting
 > all this on so that I can look it up.

I'm always on rec.pets.dogs.behavior and cross post to
the rest of the dog forums. It's quite a circus and I'm pretty
well hated by the regulars. They're pre***ely devout
koehler and pronged and shock collar fans. They've got
a bad record of mishandling and killing dogs and conspired
for years to denigrate all non force trainers in order to defend
their force methods. I access it through my isp's newsgroups
but if yours doesn't have them you can easily post through
google.com or any of several free news feeders.

 > Thanks
 > Kay Pierce

They call my students liars, paid shills for Jerry, and animal F'ers
and teach folks to ***shock crate and kill their dogs when
necessary.

I'll give you a brief story. A new poster with a Mastiff of some sort
asked about his *** controlling out of control dogs in the park.
He wanted better control just so he wouldn't have an accident
if she was challenged protecting a dog in the group from a
ruffian playmate.

She had near perfect behavior and was gentle, just a good
mom dog doin a good thing. They told him she was a
danger and he shouldn't expose innocent dogs to her, especially
being the breed she is.

He took her to a behaviorist cause everybody told him I'm a
liar and my methods won't work. The "behaviorist" worked
with him and told him to use a shock collar...

We could fix his dog's behavior to his satisfaction in
a couple short sessions without ever hurting or intimidating
her. I can't figure out what's going through these people's
minds except fear.

Another dog went to the "behaviorist" yesterday for dog fighting.
I don't expect she's alive today and the poster hasn't written yet.
He was ready to kill her though, couldn't risk his smaller dog,
and of course the vet expenses... he just wanted to confirm
that he's doin the right thing.

My last student with dog/dog aggression was Nevyn, owned two
pbX ***es who had a bad habit of fighting together and with
strange dogs. Took 24 days to make them PERFECT on and
off lead at the park or at home...

And two weeks later Valerie came by and cured her dog/dog/handler
aggressive dog in 3 DAYS.

Enough! Jerry.

===================

----- Original Message -----




Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter

 > Dear Jerry,
 > Just thought I would write to let you know how well Hunter is doing. He
 > had been trained using the conventional methods for obedience. He had
 > gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.

 > Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around.  I had also tried using
positive
 > reinforcement methods that I had been trained in. He was so busy
 > looking for the treat that he didn't really want to work.

 > So I went back to using the pinch collar on him and also a gentle leader
 > when we were in public.

 > Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and he did deserve his
reputation
 > as a vicious dog. The vet had recommended that he be put down. I was in a
 > panic when I found your web site.

 > Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first started out with 5 years
ago.
 > I am a professional trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not
 > help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs don't respond to any kind
 > of training and that a vicious dog can never be trusted again.

 > I disagree!

 > Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him with me and he doesn't
 > chase cars as much anymore which is one of his main problems.

 > We are working on the dog aggression thing. And I am confident that will
 > be successful too. I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that too is
 > working good. I know of several rescue groups that would benefit from it.

 > This is rather long I know but it comes from the heart. My Head Hunter
Green
 > and I have together along time and have been through so much together.

 > Thank you for helping me save his life.
 > Kay Pierce

=================

 > ----- Original Message -----


 > Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM
 > Subject: Update

 > Hi Jerry,
 > Just an update to let you know how things are going. Hunter
 > is doing really great thanks to you and your training manual.

 > I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get him re-evaluated
 > for aggression. all weekend long I had kids run by the fence to try
 > and make him bark. He didn't!

 > Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his dog aggression
 > but even that is going good for him. I have less and less of a
 > problem with him in my vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect
 > it from the four wheeled monsters that go by.

 > I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when we go
 > down the road and he won't try to jump out at the cars that go by.

 > I have shared the manual with several dog owners that I know
 > and even a group of dog trainers.

 > Thank you again.
 > Kay

==========================

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! -  "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day.

Major break through.

This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is
Do No Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he
belongs.

Thank you so much.
Kay

========================

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe

 > Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either
 > his way or your wrong no matter what training method
 > you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he
 > stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the
 > post.

 > He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I
 > would pay him a visit. He used your post from  July
 > in his rebuttal

 > Bob Garrett

----- Original Message -----


Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe

I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a
dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I
believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest
was trained using treats and praise.

My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed
to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems
with barrier and *** aggression. A year ago he put
a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.

When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him
down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural
way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well.

You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the
phone and consulted him about his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered using his
methods.

He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is
now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark
I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts
up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.

I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major
***. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to
take him to iffy places. But hey I know he in now a sugar.
And the most important thing he is happy again.

It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I
have mine.

Sincerely
Kay

-----------------------------------

Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with your training
manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control psychos to obedient well
behaved companions within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the
success and have asked me to work on their dogs! I was working with a 5
month old Ridgeback female today and she was being an angel after like an
hour of working with her! it is AMAZING!! I pity those fools who take their
dogs to classes where the "Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a
degree? A masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the
street who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.

Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.

Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn

Nevyn says:
How are you?

Jerry says:
sup?

Nevyn says:
Oh nothing

Nevyn says:

My dogs are alot better now!

Jerry says:
fine

Jerry says:
tell me

Nevyn says:

dogs

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
Yup

Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?

Nevyn says:
No

Nevyn says:
Praised them

Jerry says:
ahh!

Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better

Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and
pours water on them

Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!

Nevyn says:
muahaha

Jerry says:
ok

Jerry says:
I'll go for that

Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you're
consistent

Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them

Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends

Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath

Nevyn says:
muahahaha

Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're suckin hind teat?

Nevyn says:
eh

Nevyn says:
nah

Nevyn says:
cant

Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin

Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it

Jerry says:
why not.

Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server

Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer
to see you ***and shock and lock your dogs in a box?

Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't already know,
huh?

Nevyn says:
hah

Nevyn says:
tell them they're ***ers who need to die

Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much

Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now

Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?

Nevyn says:
pfftt

Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training

Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual

Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!

Jerry says:
hhahahahaha

Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with EVERYTHING you're
wanting them to do?

Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.

Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass
off at him growling at his dogs???

Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Nevyn says:
LOL

Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!

Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune

=====================

Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into *** position when a
tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL

Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!

Nevyn says:
lol

Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything was in
your expert control.

Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------


Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST

Hello

I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler
(spots) x Kelpi (*** genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug
(don't laugh!).

They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and they are
friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously
*** over the other, and I don't have a problem with that,
however;

Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good whilst I'm
walking them, some days they are not. They are 3 years old and have
only been walking for about 12 months because my mom didn't walk them
and now I'm home so I walk them for about an hour and half every
afternoon. I take them to the park where they chase birds and swim in
the lake.

This is my problem :

The less-*** dog viscously barks at every other dog we walk
past; I have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when she does it,
and treating her with treats when she doesn't, using a ***chain, a
muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks.

She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ]

Also, the more-*** dog seems to know this is WRONG, when the
other dog barks, she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other dog as if
telling her to cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the
more-*** one and they fight on the leash... it is quite
disturbing to the people walking past.

And also the more-*** one is okay around other
dogs... SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely ignores them, and yet
other times she will attack them, like yesterday. The less ***
one I must keep on a leash if a person brings there dog to the park.

How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the methods
I have used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it just a pac
k-behaviour thing?

It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs attack some old
lady's or little girl's dog.

They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other dogs
around. Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying around the park
and they were chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them for
more than 90 minutes (They went straight to bed when I bought them
home!). Can anyone help me? Email me at my emails address,

Thanks,
Nevyn

=======================



Hi There Jerry

Its Nevyn. Sorry Ive not been posting, but these lying
scum buckets like Alphuck Sweeny and such really
***me off; And Ive been working weekend work at
the tracks with the greyhounds (thanks to you!).

Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can
have them out in the yard with me, take them walking
without a leash, they will do any command with no
hesitation. And they don't bark anymore! Thanks to
your machine!

Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends
and family -- Here are some reports:

"I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer
severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine
quietened them almost instantly - still they barked,
in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then
slowly they just stopped... beginning to bark, then
instantly stopping.

It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing.

Truly amazing;

I have recommomeded it to my family, and perhaps
they will buy one. Its a shame you don't sell them publicly".
-- Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt ***) and Sheeba (4 yr
Rotty X)

"My two dogs barked insanely when someone would
go past. With this little machine they quietened right
down, and even became partly obedient, and we did
nothing!

Great stuff.

We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!"
- Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old.

Well I have some more, and am collecting more,
but I only have one machine so its a slow process.
Once again I say thankyou Jerry! My family was
on the verge of giving them up! :(

But no longer :)

=====================


 > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
 > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
 > watching him extract his soggy  foot out of his mouth!
 > Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
 > come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

Robert Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.

This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile ***at the hands of supposedly
*** dog lovers.

The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.

To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior.  Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names.  Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.

"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.

Why do you act like fools?  I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.

 > And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
 > actually admit to buying and having success with his
 > little black box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.

 > Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
 > Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
 > to him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

 >Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad.

Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)

===============

  The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW;-) >

     ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
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