Advice on rose arbor needed...

Description of your first forum.

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by dhs » Tue, 17 Mar 1998 04:00:00



I plan to plant about five climbers this spring, and need to build two rose
arbors. I am in the historic district in my town, and will probably need to
have the arbors made of wood,  and they also probably will have to be
painted white.
One of the climbers will be "Conrad Ferdinand Meyer", with fierce
***les...
Is there common wisdom about the type of wood I should use, the most
resistant shapes, and the types of paints which will whistand the best and
the longest the *** of climbing roses? Are there books which discribe
this process? As I am building it, I would rather not have to redo the job
regularly...

Tank you for your advice.   Lisa in zone 5b in MA

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by Patrick Burk » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
> I plan to plant about five climbers this spring, and need to build two rose
> arbors. I am in the historic district in my town, and will probably need to
> have the arbors made of wood,  and they also probably will have to be
> painted white.
> One of the climbers will be "Conrad Ferdinand Meyer", with fierce
> ***les...
> Is there common wisdom about the type of wood I should use, the most
> resistant shapes, and the types of paints which will whistand the best and
> the longest the *** of climbing roses? Are there books which discribe
> this process? As I am building it, I would rather not have to redo the job
> regularly...

First of all, you don't necessarily HAVE to use wood. My wisteria and
clematis climb arbors of PVC plumbing: cheap, easy to use, and will resist
weather for thousands of years, as far as we know. Wisteria and clematis
are true climbers, however, meaning they will entwine themselves around a
support. My first instinct is it wouldn't be strong enough for a hefty
Cecil Brunner et. al. unless wisely engineered.

Copper pipe is another good choice. Whether painted or allowed to age
naturally, makes great arbors that should easily outlast you and your
roses. I've done some copper plumbing, the techniques aren't too hard, but
they involve molten solder and strange cutting tools, could be more than
some people want to get into.

With wood, you have two choices: treated and untreated wood. The good
thing about treated wood is it should never rot, so you never have to dig
it up, disentangle it rrom your rose, and put up another. Treated wood
takes paint and stains just like normal wood, however sometimes because
it's treated the home centers leave it outside, where it gets very wet.
Won't hurt the wood, but it could affect how it takes paint.

The bad thing about treated wood: the reason it doesn't rot is because
they chemically fumigate it under pressure with EXTREMELY toxic chemicals,
usually chromium copper arsenate, a relative of arsenic. Now, supposedly,
those chemicals bond themselves quite strongly with the wood and don't rub
off or leach out into the soil. I have heard reports, however, that they
will leach over time, but those reports were delivered by very breathless,
sweaty people who clearly had their own opinions about treated wood
regardless of what studies said, so I don't know. Whether it leaches or
not, there are legitimate questions about it, such as, if it never rots
and contains toxic chemicals, what's going to happen to it after it leaves
the garden? Landfill? Can't burn it, that does release the chemicals.

Without treated wood, it isn't a question of if outdoor wood will rot,
especially in contact with soil, but when. Redwood, cedar, and locust will
last longer thanb other woods, but that may only be three seasons rather
than one. Painting helps. In your area, white and dark green are the usual
colors, I think. If you can think of a way to keep the wood away from the
soil, and dry, and painted, it can last for centuries.

I live in an old house in a wet area. I just had to jack up the center of
my house and replace all my posts because you could kick them and they
would sort of swing around. Not good, architecturally. When I replaced the
posts, I used treated wood. There is a structural need, and water is
present. I generally don't like using it for gardening applications when
other things are available. No solid evidence to support that inclination,
I just don't want to find in ten years that it made my backyard a  
superfund site.

Hope that helps.

Patrick Burke
Project Services Coordinator
Biological Sciences Division Information Services
The University of Chicago

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by MEG » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00


My experience with a trellis or arbor of any sort if that the top far
out-lasts the
part in the ground. I now attach any wooden trellis or arbor to a metal
support and
pound that into the ground keeping the wooden part well above the soil and
thereby keeping it around for a long time.
Works quite well here in zone 5 of NY.

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by Julie Inmo » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00


I saw a transcript from a home & Garden show (sorry, don't remember the
URL) in which they made a copper trellis, but instead of soldering or
welding, they stuck it together with Liquid Nails, and seemed pretty
impressed with the results.  Now, I don't know about cutting the pieces.
Maybe you can buy them pre-cut?  I plan on checking out this option... I'm
in the same boat.

Anyone want to build & mail me a trellis for free?  :)

-Julie

: Copper pipe is another good choice. Whether painted or allowed to age
: naturally, makes great arbors that should easily outlast you and your
: roses. I've done some copper plumbing, the techniques aren't too hard, but
: they involve molten solder and strange cutting tools, could be more than
: some people want to get into.

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by Patrick Burk » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> I saw a transcript from a home & garden show (sorry, don't remember the
> URL) in which they made a copper trellis, but instead of soldering or
> welding, they stuck it together with Liquid Nails, and seemed pretty
> impressed with the results.  Now, I don't know about cutting the pieces.
> Maybe you can buy them pre-cut?  I plan on checking out this option... I'm
> in the same boat.

Hmmm. Suppose it would work, but I would use epoxy before I used liquid
nails, I thought LN was for porous surfaces. Soldering really isn't that
hard, though.

And I should have explained the cutting: you cut copper tubing with a
tubing cutter. They run about $10-20 or so. A steel wheel scribes the
surface, then you tighten a***which makes it scribe deeper, and
deeper, and deeper until it's cut through. Hard to explain, very easy to
do. Hacksaw works, too. Leaves ragged edges, which are a bummer for
plumbing but not a big deal if it's just standing around outside.

Patrick Burke
Project Services Coordinator
Biological Sciences Division Information Services
The University of Chicago

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by Lynn Thomso » Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> The bad thing about treated wood: the reason it doesn't rot is because
> they chemically fumigate it under pressure with EXTREMELY toxic chemicals,
> usually chromium copper arsenate, a relative of arsenic. Now, supposedly,
> those chemicals bond themselves quite strongly with the wood and don't rub
> off or leach out into the soil. I have heard reports, however, that they
> will leach over time, but those reports were delivered by very breathless,
> sweaty people who clearly had their own opinions about treated wood
> regardless of what studies said, so I don't know.

What a gloriously vivid picture - thanks!

Quote:

> Without treated wood, it isn't a question of if outdoor wood will rot,
> especially in contact with soil, but when. Redwood, cedar, and locust will
> last longer thanb other woods, but that may only be three seasons rather
> than one. Painting helps. In your area, white and dark green are the usual
> colors, I think. If you can think of a way to keep the wood away from the
> soil, and dry, and painted, it can last for centuries.

This can be done by sinking a section of metal pipe - slightly larger
diameter than your wood - into the ground.  Pour a little concrete in
the pipe.  Let set.  Set the wood in the pipe and fill around it with
concrete.  Should last much longer, and shouldn't blow over no matter
how bad your wind is.....

--
Lynn Thomson
San Antonio, TX - Zone 8b

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by Jeffrey A. Del C » Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Ideally a copper pipe trellis should be soldered--ordinary household
plumbing solder is strong enough,  no need for silver solder.

(solders sold for water supply use are lead-free, tin/antimony alloys,
so let's not have any flaming about lead in the environment)

Soldering takes some skill and can be risky, but it provides the
most permanent joints when they are properly done.

However, a reasonable alternative is a new adhesive called PL.  It
is urethane based, totally waterproof when dry and remains flexible
well below zero,  unlike Liquid Nails which becomes brittle and is
not, in my experience, especially waterproof outdoors.

Anyone making a pipe trellis should invest in a good tubing cutter
to get square, smooth cuts.  

J. Del Col

 
 
 

Advice on rose arbor needed...

Post by HSRoseb » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>I plan to plant about five climbers this spring, and need to build two
>rose<BR>
>> arbors. I am in the historic district in my town, and will probably need
>to<BR>
> have the arbors made of wood,  and they also probably will have to be<BR>
>> painted white. <BR>
>> Is there common wisdom about the type of wood I should use, the most<BR>
>> resistant shapes, and the types of paints which will whistand the best
>and<BR>
>> the longest the *** of climbing roses?

In reply to DHS;  Remember if you use treated lumber to use only oil-based
primer and paint as the treatment elements are an oil-based substance.  Latex
will peal off quickly.
Check w/you historical committee re:what material can/cannot be used.  That
will delete a lot of ideas.
If you must use wood, inquire as to using metal for the arch i.e.  using wood
posts of desired height then attaching metal arches.  We used this idea in our
garden with picket fence.  At the fence posts we attached two bendable metal
pieces (each the size of 1/2"pipe). These pipes were welded together using 4 or
6" connectors every 18-24" to stabilize the arch poles.  (Picture railroad
tracks with ties spaced farther apart.)  These arches had a 4"wide x 6"hi plate
welded to each end. These plates were screwed to the fence post.  We had these
made at a local welding shop 6 yrs ago for approx $10-15 each.  All we had to
do was spray paint them before putting them up.  We designed them ourselves by
measuring the height of arch and adding 2-3 ft of length for the plates to
attach to fencepost.  They are covered w/monster climbers , still standing
strong (although one year they did rotate on the screws and we needed to add
more***holes to stabilize) and the paint still looks good, though you don't
see much of it.
Hope this has been another idea worth condisering.  
We have drawn many shapes for garden supports and taken them to our welder.
The trick is usually figuring out the dimensions.
Good luck!!

Cathy