Moon's Graden

I need to maintain a very large Norfolk Pine tree in my back yard, and
I'm not sure what the right actions to take are.  Here are the details
(see the bottom for my questions):

My backyard contains a large (~150 feet tall!) and seemingly healthy
Norfolk Pine tree that is growing at an alarming pace.  When I bought
the house 3 years ago, the tree was covered in ivy (it was reaching
about 50' up the trunk).  Thinking this was not healthy for the tree, I
cut the ivy down.  I'm not sure if that accelerated the tree's growth,
however since then it's branches have grown to cover the entire back
yard (about 15-20 feet broader), and the tree keeps getting noticably  
taller each year.  

I have at least three reasons for wanting to cut back the tree and stop
its rapid growth:

(1) Because we are in San Francisco, back yards are not very big.  If
the tree were to fall, it would severly damage either my house or one of
the neighbors'.  I've been told that Norfolk Pine trees have shallow
root systems, though this tree seems to have been here for 50-100 years.

(2) There is no longer any sun in the back yard.

(3) Every 4-6 months, the tree "sheds" its "leaves", and covers the back
yard with 6 inches deep of "droppings"  (these aren't really leaves, but
I don't know what they're called).

My questions:

I've heard that if Norfolk Pine trees are pruned incorrectly, they never
regain their shape, and it can also damage the tree.  Is there a
"right" way to do it?  How do I know if a local "tree expert" knows what
he/she is doing?  How dangerous is a 150' Norfolk Pine tree...do they
have a height above which they fall more frequently?  Can I trim the
lower branches without damaging the tree?

To make matters more complicated, there is no access to my back yard for
any sort of crane, since the widest access to the back is about 3 feet
wide.  So, any sort of tree maintenance will have to be done manually,
with someone climbing the tree.  Is this even possible???

If anyone has had experience with a similar-sized tree, please let me
know!  

Thanks,

-- Fred

hth, elizabeth

Many others note the Norfolk in particular as a threat when planted within
reach of a house when it falls. It is the mass rather than height that
will eventually bring it down, though height does help it catch more wind.
It will likely only lose large limbs until the girth & mass of the tree
exceeds the root capacity to sustain its weight in a wind. Any big tree
close to a house could be a danger, but I'd feel a lot safer with a very
deeply rooting Cedar of Lebanon (in particular with a carefully chosen
cultivar that would ot exceed a given height) than a Norfolk which is both
more brittle so could snap off, & less deeply rooted so could completely
upturn in a high wind. Since Norfolk is not likely to blow over until it
reaches a really good girth; & San Francisco might not be as close to
sure-doom as in hurricane country (Hawaiians & Floridians are awfully
careful of where Norfolks get planted), your situation may not be an
emergency, but it is surely tempting fate.

Most of the literature on pruning Norfolks is about keeping them small
longer as houseplants, rather than about pruning mature trees. But from a
few references it appears that they never regain their shape whether it's
the wind or a human that takes off limbs.

As for  major pruning or even taking down a tree in a narrow space, twenty
years ago I hired a crew to take down a large madronna that completely
filled a narrow area at the rear of a house. These trees are brittle at
best, & can break in even moderately high winds, & this old one was older
than that wing of the house, the room & roof had been built around the
trunk, then the tree continued growing until it filled in the space &amp
pressed against the roof & shook the whole house during even mild storms
storms. A lot of the tree hung over the roof. It had already caused damage
& leaving it for yet another generation was out of the question. A crew of
three foresters with ropes & roaring saws took it down in pieces from the
top down, & I just about broke even on the value of the firewood. I
watched in terror because any of the rounds that came down could've
plunged right through the roof, but these guys really knew their stuff &
never even came close to a mistake.

A very old douglas fir on the other side of the house ruined the updraft
of the chimney, & was so close to the house (about twelve feet away) as to
pose a considerable danger, & did drop limbs on the roof during storms.
But for the year I owned that house, I couldn't stand the idea of losing
that big tree so I decided to live with the risk, & put an extension to
the chimney to regain a semblance of updraft. The trees that invariably
fell in yards in that area were large old poplars & *** willows
especially those planted near septic tank drainage fields which grew
unusually fast & lacked density & strength -- but  in the nearby woodlands
it was the madronnas, & now & then a douglas would completely upturn its
roots (as Norfolks are even more apt to do). So during the year I lived
under that douglas, in stormy weather I held my breath, it was
nervewracking on stormy nights, but  even so I decided not to have it
taken down.

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
   -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ra***: http://www.moonsgarden.com/

Fred,
We live in the triangle area of NC which is a much different zone than where
you live.  I don't think Norfolk Pines even grow here.
Good luck,
Jw

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--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
   -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ra***: http://www.moonsgarden.com/

I would suggest contacting either your local Council (whatever you call them
in the US -- handle your garbage and your street trees).  Here, at least, some
older trees are subject to tree preservation orders and can't be
removed/lopped without council permission.  Secondly, contact the nearest
Botanical Gardens, especially if they have Norfolk Island Pines.  They may be
able to give you more information, or even recommend a tree surgeon.

There doesn't seem to be much information on the internet -- mainly growers
selling them as Christmas trees <boggle>.  If it's any help, the two massive
Norfolk Island Pines that I remember from my primary school 27 years ago are
still there and still massive.  They must be very long-lived.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

The most consistent empirical proof from history is the doctrine of human
depravity. -- Chuck Colson

I have a large pine tree as well with the same problem. I was given advise
that if you lop off the lower branches it slows the growth dramatically.
This appears to have happened with mine. It will then let more sun through.
As  for shallow rooting-? but someone may advance or offer better advice.

Graeme

Good luck

--
Remove "not" from start of email address to reply

These trees seem to be remarkably durable, which is not a big surprise
when you consider that they originate in cyclone affected areas of the
South Pacific.  All that energy going in to growing something that big
would be rather wasted if they broke in the wind all the time.

If you are thinking of hiring somebody to trim or take down a tree of
that size in a built-up area be sure that you are seated and have
medication handy when you read the quotes.  Around here half the tree
cutters wouldn't touch it.

David

Ifanything happens dueinr the course of THEIR treatment, they
will have enough insurance to cover the house it lands on.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincar

" Conical evergreen tree growing to heights approaching 100 ft
with a 40 to 40 ft spread. Moderate rate of growth."

I detect a troll ... that's a FIF*** STORY TREE. growing rapidly

Or he's got a coast redwood and doesn't know it.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincar

-- Fred

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://hub.dataline.net.au/~gardnlen/

Jay