Moon's Graden

by **D. Stuss** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:32:48

Well, I think I have finally figured out why there were so few baby bunnies
last year despite all of Ralphable's wild relatives of breeding age that remain
outside: Rats.

It appears that a family of these rodents has moved into the bushes that
constitute the main warren. In the past, I've only seen ONE rat on an
occasional basis. However, today, I saw 2+ *** rats actually come right up
to Ralphable's aunt and attack her, and they had no problem approaching ME to
within 4 feet! She avoided the bites by jumping over the rats but ran away
about 20 feet. I think that the scar on her face she now has is a former rat
bite. I also believe that the rats have been finding the baby rabbits, before
they mature enough to move around, and have been eating them.

What I'm interested in is (and since rats are generally undesirable anyway):
Has anyone had to exterminate rats WITHIN a rabbit environment before?

The only thing I can think of is to put the rat poison (pellets) into a
cardboard box with an opening too small for the rabbits, but I'm afraid that if
I do, the rabbits will enlarge the hole and get in too. I don't have any
wooden boxes or plastic milk crates to use instead, but I might be able to use
an empty, plastic juice bottle. (I have to check its size against the rabbits
who live inside to verify that they can't get in).

If I could somehow guarentee that the aunt is the ONLY bunny still around, I
could live-trap her, poison the rats, then release her the next day. However,
I don't know that she is, and last year, I did see up to 5 *** rabbits at one
time, so I know that others were around.

If anyone is worried about population control of the rabbits, I live in an area
that has its share of other predators (owls and coyotes have been seen, as well
as the occasional domestic cat), plus considering the dangers that rats have
traditionally been tied to, I don't see a rabbit population explosion happening
with the termination of the rats.

Any [other] suggestions would be appreciated.

by HB » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:08:28

Poison + Bunnies = A very scary proposition.

I don't know much about rats, but mice I have encountered.

Before we had house rabbits, I used to throw those little paper envelopes of
Decon around in the attic. Months later, I found one of my "off season"
shoes in the back closet with nearly a whole package of the stuff stashed in
it, grain by grain. At about the same time, I noticed (luckily), funny
looking greenish/purple mouse droppings in a sack of rabbit feed in a
storage room far from the house.

On another incident, we found a ten gallon aquarium stored in the back of a
closet over 1/4 full of dry dog food chunks. The dog food & dish was 3 rooms
(about 50 feet) away.

Don't underestimate what a rat will do with the stuff.

--
(Y)
(-)

(_)-(_)
"It's because of the ears"

HB, Chelsea, Ginger, Reeser, Jasmine & JellyBean.
(Bandit, SweetPea & Pipkin from the bridge)

by **Dary** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:44:06

After much consideration, I have deleted
my original post on how to get rid of them
though it was an effective means of doing
so.

Then I remembered that poem "all because
they did not have enough to eat"

I would suggest getting a live trap that
only the rats can enter then relocate the
rats.

When I had outdoor rabbits, they got
along fine with the rats. So, long as they
had enough to eat.

Maybe you should feed them?

Or, if you want D, I can e-mail you the
other way.

Oh, one last thing.

Hey Pinky? I don't want to put a downer
on your head but, they do bite back so
be carefull.

Daryl

by **James Aldric** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:05:08

Quote:

> However, today, I saw 2+ *** rats actually come right up
> to Ralphable's aunt and attack her, and they had no problem approaching ME to
> within 4 feet!

This may be obvious and not feasible in your situation, but rats that bold are
inviting a dose of #4 steel shot. A less disruptive option would be a high power
air rifle at 25'.

Quote:

> The only thing I can think of is to put the rat poison (pellets) into a
> cardboard box with an opening too small for the rabbits, but I'm afraid that if
> I do, the rabbits will enlarge the hole and get in too.

How about putting the poison in something rabbits won't touch-- e.g. meat?

JSA

by **D. Stuss** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:18:34

Quote:

> > However, today, I saw 2+ *** rats actually come right up
> > to Ralphable's aunt and attack her, and they had no problem approaching ME to
> > within 4 feet!

> This may be obvious and not feasible in your situation, but rats that bold are
> inviting a dose of #4 steel shot. A less disruptive option would be a high power
> air rifle at 25'.

Believe it or not, I already tried that last year with an air compression
pistol and BB's. The fired pellet hit the rat on the head at 15' and just
simply bounced off. The rat didn't really care. The next thing up from there
would be to grab my handgun or bring my AK back to California (however, ***
*** weapons' permit needed now), but then the neighbors would probably end
up calling the police about the shots being fired. However, a good 7.62x39
round will certainly take care of them (the rats, not the neighbors, although
the latter would be true too).

Quote:

> > The only thing I can think of is to put the rat poison (pellets) into a
> > cardboard box with an opening too small for the rabbits, but I'm afraid that if
> > I do, the rabbits will enlarge the hole and get in too.

> How about putting the poison in something rabbits won't touch-- e.g. meat?

The rat poison that I have ready access to is in pellet form.

by **Griz** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:24:43

Yikes! I'd be very very careful with ANY type of poison around your
rabbits. If one of them does get into it you will be scarred for life
watching them die a painful death because their clotting factors have been
destroyed by the poison you sewed.
Try a higher-powered air gun. You can get ones that fire .22 calibre
pellets, and choose a pellet with an aggressive profile. Then work on your
aim!
Another option would be an adapation of a squirrel-snare. This uses the
difference between their climbing ability to keep the rabbits safe.
Identify the runs your rats use then find a place where you can lean an
innocent stick-ramp where it will become incorporated in their route. The
ramp should be small enough that the rabbits can't use it but large enough
for the rats. Make sure there is something on the other side the rats want
to get to so they'll expend the energy to climb. Then corral them into
that area using natural barriers so that their only choice is to climb or
reverse their course.
Then tie some fine metal snares on the stick using a rolling slip-knot.
Make sure they're far enough off the ground to keep you buns safe. Make it
so the rats have to run through the snare-loops. When one "grabs" them,
they will panic and jump off the stick, tightened the loop.
BTW, this set-up is VERY effective on squirrels (and cats) too. Watch you
don't get in trouble with the local wildlife authorities. You can reduce
your squirrel fatalities by keeping the snare-loops just large enough for a
rat's head and small enough that a squirrel would tend to move around them.
And check your snare frequently to release anything that might get snared by
accident. Get some thick leather gloves with lots of padding!
There's a lot of responsibility in setting a snare like this. If you find
you're doing more damage to local indigenous wildlife than to the rat
population, cease and either modify your snare or find another way. It's a
battle of the wits! Just remember who's in control! 8^)

Griz & Shadow

by **D. Stuss** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:07:43

Quote:

> Yikes! I'd be very very careful with ANY type of poison around your
> rabbits. If one of them does get into it you will be scarred for life
> watching them die a painful death because their clotting factors have been
> destroyed by the poison you sewed.
> Try a higher-powered air gun. You can get ones that fire .22 calibre
> pellets, and choose a pellet with an aggressive profile. Then work on your
> aim!

Aim isn't my problem. Ordinance power is. The other problem is that what I
have used is the most powerful that local law allows and still isn't considered
as the "discharge of a firearm within city limits."

Quote:

> Another option would be an adapation of a squirrel-snare. This uses the
> difference between their climbing ability to keep the rabbits safe.
> Identify the runs your rats use then find a place where you can lean an
> innocent stick-ramp where it will become incorporated in their route. The
> ramp should be small enough that the rabbits can't use it but large enough
> for the rats. Make sure there is something on the other side the rats want
> to get to so they'll expend the energy to climb. Then corral them into
> that area using natural barriers so that their only choice is to climb or
> reverse their course.

Good idea. However, we also have squirrels (who are friendly to the rabbits).
Additionally, if you've looked at the pictures of the "wild" relatives and of
Buck on my rabbits' web site, you'd see how thickly wooded some parts are. The
main warren where the rats are I can't even get into because of all the brush.

Quote:

> Then tie some fine metal snares on the stick using a rolling slip-knot.
> Make sure they're far enough off the ground to keep you buns safe. Make it
> so the rats have to run through the snare-loops. When one "grabs" them,
> they will panic and jump off the stick, tightened the loop.

Those devices are not legal in my state.

Quote:

> BTW, this set-up is VERY effective on squirrels (and cats) too. Watch you
> don't get in trouble with the local wildlife authorities. You can reduce
> your squirrel fatalities by keeping the snare-loops just large enough for a
> rat's head and small enough that a squirrel would tend to move around them.
> And check your snare frequently to release anything that might get snared by
> accident. Get some thick leather gloves with lots of padding!
> There's a lot of responsibility in setting a snare like this. If you find
> you're doing more damage to local indigenous wildlife than to the rat
> population, cease and either modify your snare or find another way. It's a
> battle of the wits! Just remember who's in control! 8^)

Well, even though he has nothing to do with this situation, Ralphable claims
control! ;-)

by **mbti** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:16:46

I know this is for mice but my father used to put a garden hose with a
highpowered nozzle down one of the holes. We'd watch to see the other
escape routes. He poured bankrun gravel down all but one exit and ran
the hose down again. He covered the one exit with a crude tarp tunnel
and live-trap at the end. It worked the majority of the time. I don't
know how prolific a tunnel builder a rat is but it may be worth a try.

mary beth & oreo

by **y..** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:34

Quote:

> After much consideration, I have deleted
> my original post on how to get rid of them
> though it was an effective means of doing
> so.

> Then I remembered that poem "all because
> they did not have enough to eat"

> I would suggest getting a live trap that
> only the rats can enter then relocate the
> rats.

> When I had outdoor rabbits, they got
> along fine with the rats. So, long as they
> had enough to eat.

> Maybe you should feed them?

> Or, if you want D, I can e-mail you the
> other way.

> Oh, one last thing.

> Hey Pinky? I don't want to put a downer
> on your head but, they do bite back so
> be carefull.

> Daryl

Thanks, Daryl.

I'll be careful!

Pinky

by **y..** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:25:28

Do not assume rabbits won't eat meat! They have been known to do so!
In the wild, they often eat carrion. One bunny on this group grabbed a
strip of bacon!

Nona

Quote:

> > However, today, I saw 2+ *** rats actually come right up
> > to Ralphable's aunt and attack her, and they had no problem approaching ME to
> > within 4 feet!

> This may be obvious and not feasible in your situation, but rats that bold are
> inviting a dose of #4 steel shot. A less disruptive option would be a high power
> air rifle at 25'.

> > The only thing I can think of is to put the rat poison (pellets) into a
> > cardboard box with an opening too small for the rabbits, but I'm afraid that if
> > I do, the rabbits will enlarge the hole and get in too.

> How about putting the poison in something rabbits won't touch-- e.g. meat?

> JSA

by **D. Stuss** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:08:38

Quote:

> I know this is for mice but my father used to put a garden hose with a
> highpowered nozzle down one of the holes. We'd watch to see the other
> escape routes. He poured bankrun gravel down all but one exit and ran
> the hose down again. He covered the one exit with a crude tarp tunnel
> and live-trap at the end. It worked the majority of the time. I don't
> know how prolific a tunnel builder a rat is but it may be worth a try.

Thanks for the suggestion. Too bad I can't use it - because:

1) The warren area lies across several neighbors' properties (I'm the only
one who really cares about the rabbits), and
2) The thickness of the brush prevents entry into the area to find the rat
holes.

by **d.guipago-gleav** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:18:35

Quote:

> Yikes! I'd be very very careful with ANY type of poison around your
> rabbits. If one of them does get into it you will be scarred for life
> watching them die a painful death because their clotting factors have been
> destroyed by the poison you sewed.
> Try a higher-powered air gun. You can get ones that fire .22 calibre
> pellets, and choose a pellet with an aggressive profile. Then work on
your
> aim!
> Another option would be an adapation of a squirrel-snare. This uses the
> difference between their climbing ability to keep the rabbits safe.
> Identify the runs your rats use then find a place where you can lean an
> innocent stick-ramp where it will become incorporated in their route. The
> ramp should be small enough that the rabbits can't use it but large enough
> for the rats. Make sure there is something on the other side the rats
want
> to get to so they'll expend the energy to climb. Then corral them into
> that area using natural barriers so that their only choice is to climb or
> reverse their course.
> Then tie some fine metal snares on the stick using a rolling slip-knot.
> Make sure they're far enough off the ground to keep you buns safe. Make
it
> so the rats have to run through the snare-loops. When one "grabs" them,
> they will panic and jump off the stick, tightened the loop.
> BTW, this set-up is VERY effective on squirrels (and cats) too. Watch you
> don't get in trouble with the local wildlife authorities. You can reduce
> your squirrel fatalities by keeping the snare-loops just large enough for
a
> rat's head and small enough that a squirrel would tend to move around
them.
> And check your snare frequently to release anything that might get snared
by
> accident. Get some thick leather gloves with lots of padding!
> There's a lot of responsibility in setting a snare like this. If you find
> you're doing more damage to local indigenous wildlife than to the rat
> population, cease and either modify your snare or find another way. It's
a
> battle of the wits! Just remember who's in control! 8^)

> Griz & Shadow

I shuddered rreading this. I presume you are not in UK as this sort of thing
[ snares] is HIGHLY illegal because of the cruelty involved. What is wrong
with going to a pet shop and getting one of the sound emitting gadgets which
are designed precisely for the purpose of driving rodents away rather than
killing them with such dispicable methods, and shooting them is equally as
bad unless an expert marksman is aiming the gun. Just because the rats are
an undesirable menace does not mean they should be made to suffer in a
gruesome manner - they are still living things so its far better to humanely
persuade them to leave with an emitter.
Patch.

- Show quoted text -

by **Cddlebun** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:15:00

what if you used a humane live-trap? then if you caught a bunny, you could
just release it, if you caught a rat, you could then do whatever you wish...
dispose of them humanely or take them far away from your place and turn them
loose...
Melody, Cuddles, Koko and Traycer
(http://www.angelfire.com/pq/melodyzg/bunny.html)
"Everybunny Loves Somebunny Sometime"
Dean Martin (paraphrased)

by **D. Stuss** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:31:36

Because the rabbit is too smart for a live, metal cage trap. I've tried, and
she's managed to steal the carrot bait without getting caught on multiple
occasions. Think of how smart they must be if their domesticated relatives are
watching (and possibly understanding [parts of]) television.

Also, remember that I said that I can't guarentee that she's the ONLY rabbit in
the area. I know that there are others (such as the male - Ralphable's
father), somewhere. Also, unless I catch her when pregnant, I can't guarentee
that she hasn't tried to have [another] family out there somewhere. Even a 24
hour hold on her (with release after that) could be enough to do damage to the
babies, without her presence to protect them.

Quote:

> what if you used a humane live-trap? then if you caught a bunny, you could
> just release it, if you caught a rat, you could then do whatever you wish...
> dispose of them humanely or take them far away from your place and turn them
> loose...
> Melody, Cuddles, Koko and Traycer
> (http://www.angelfire.com/pq/melodyzg/bunny.html)
> "Everybunny Loves Somebunny Sometime"
> Dean Martin (paraphrased)

by **Carrie L. Kulp-Hann** » Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:34:38

This is completely OFF TOPIC, but your dad's solution reminded me of a
scene from Caddyshack! I can see it now--a rat riding the crest of a
geuyser in someones back yard!

(On a more serious note, it is about the most humane alternative I've
heard!)

Quote:

> I know this is for mice but my father used to put a garden hose with a
> highpowered nozzle down one of the holes. We'd watch to see the other
> escape routes. He poured bankrun gravel down all but one exit and ran
> the hose down again. He covered the one exit with a crude tarp tunnel
> and live-trap at the end. It worked the majority of the time. I don't
> know how prolific a tunnel builder a rat is but it may be worth a try.

> mary beth & oreo

Moon's Graden

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.

Wild rabbit problem with rats.