Best type of food

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Best type of food

Post by Jennifer Pearso » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00



I have purchased 2 brands of food lately ("for all pond fish"), which are
quite different in bulk density.  The Tetra brand seems to be mostly air,
and the fish would eat piece after piece if I kept feeding them.  The
Wardley brand is a pellet so dense the fish get one piece and take a minute
or two to get it down before they need another one.  Is one of these types
better than the other?  What does everyone feed their fish?  I know, they
don't need tons of food, but they are very tame and I enjoy feeding them
from my hand.  In fact, I could just about pick most of them up in my hand.
Thanks.

Jennifer

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Kahun » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Hi...I know this will cause a stir .but this food has worked for
me..                         floating "Catfish Food"...I have been using
it exclusivly for over 4 years...my fish are doing great...I can get 5
pounds at the local feed store for $1.50 plus tax...FWIW..Mike
 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Lor » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
>Hi...I know this will cause a stir .but this food has worked for
>me..                         floating "Catfish Food"...I have been using
>it exclusivly for over 4 years...my fish are doing great...I can get 5
>pounds at the local feed store for $1.50 plus tax...FWIW..Mike

Farm Co-ops have #50 of RISE (floating catfish pellets) for $12.40
here in Indiana. Took 2 days for them to decide, but  my  and GF love
it. There is another floating food brand, but haven't been to where I
can get some.

Lori

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Mike » Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Great...It definetly is cheaper by the 50 pound bag...I usually buy it by the
5 or 10 pound bag....I have already used 10 pounds since April....I just
don't really have a place to store it.....The Missouri Botanical Gardens in
St. Louis have used "Happy Cat" floating food for years..they have a HUGE
several acre Koi pond in their Japanese Garden and the KOI are
gigantic......they have never experienced health problems by feeding their
Koi this type of food.....Mike
Quote:

> >Hi...I know this will cause a stir .but this food has worked for
> >me..                         floating "Catfish Food"...I have been using
> >it exclusivly for over 4 years...my fish are doing great...I can get 5
> >pounds at the local feed store for $1.50 plus tax...FWIW..Mike

> Farm Co-ops have #50 of RISE (floating catfish pellets) for $12.40
> here in Indiana. Took 2 days for them to decide, but  my  and GF love
> it. There is another floating food brand, but haven't been to where I
> can get some.

> Lori

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by brett rowle » Sat, 19 Jun 1999 04:00:00




Quote:
>Great...It definetly is cheaper by the 50 pound bag...I usually buy it by the
>5 or 10 pound bag....I have already used 10 pounds since April....I just
>don't really have a place to store it.....The Missouri Botanical Gardens in
>St. Louis have used "Happy Cat" floating food for years..they have a HUGE
>several acre Koi pond in their Japanese Garden and the KOI are
>gigantic......they have never experienced health problems by feeding their
>Koi this type of food.....Mike

Catfish food is similar to koi food in many respects.  However, it is not a complete diet for koi.  I am sure in the large
Botanical Garden pond (Sounds very much like a place I would love to see) the ecology is such that the koi there
have a much varied diet of many types of plants and organisms.    This helps to supply the koi with nutrients that
the catfish food cannot.  In a backyard pond, sometimes, overstocked with fish, the production of natural foods is
very minimal.  Koi in such a pond, fed only catfish food will, over time develop nutritional problems.  Sometimes
this is as subtle as a predisposition to becoming ill.  Sometimes as obvious as a bent or broken spine.  

Koi fed a variety of "snacks" such as prawns, cereals, greens, fruits and vegetables as well as catfish food will not
be as likely to have problems.  However, in most cases, koi will do much better being fed koi food, whether other
foods are available or not.

Another, sometimes overlooked aspect of feeding koi is that the higher bred the animal, the more susceptible it is
to nutritional problems.  The lower bred animals are much hardier and better able to thrive in a wide variety of
situations.

Brett

Quote:


>> >Hi...I know this will cause a stir .but this food has worked for
>> >me..                         floating "Catfish Food"...I have been using
>> >it exclusivly for over 4 years...my fish are doing great...I can get 5
>> >pounds at the local feed store for $1.50 plus tax...FWIW..Mike

>> Farm Co-ops have #50 of RISE (floating catfish pellets) for $12.40
>> here in Indiana. Took 2 days for them to decide, but  my  and GF love
>> it. There is another floating food brand, but haven't been to where I
>> can get some.

>> Lori

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Mark » Sat, 19 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Hi Brett.....Good info....I have huge crops of Water Parsley....that I use in my biofilters...it grows like crazy....I give my
koi a large bundle of it atleast every week..they love to devour it....I also feed worms when I find them...etc..etc.....I
would say along with the Catfish Food....the Koi will benefit by some ammendments to there diet..{:O)  Thanks!!  Mike
Quote:



> >Great...It definetly is cheaper by the 50 pound bag...I usually buy it by the
> >5 or 10 pound bag....I have already used 10 pounds since April....I just
> >don't really have a place to store it.....The Missouri Botanical Gardens in
> >St. Louis have used "Happy Cat" floating food for years..they have a HUGE
> >several acre Koi pond in their Japanese Garden and the KOI are
> >gigantic......they have never experienced health problems by feeding their
> >Koi this type of food.....Mike

> Catfish food is similar to koi food in many respects.

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Kelli » Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:00:00


I'm glad to see this!  I've used catfish food for the last two summers based
on advice from the Botonical gardens.  The fish thrive.  TOO well!!  I'm
often told it is too fatty for them, but that's not accurate for fish that go
into metabolic slow down in winter.  It is good for them to fatten up (like
bears and squirrels, etc.) for the long winter, to live off that fat prevents
them from developing health problems in the spring from being too weak.  I've
never had a fish die from anything but too much mating and a lower pond that
went dry twice last summer.

Quote:

> >Hi...I know this will cause a stir .but this food has worked for
> >me..                         floating "Catfish Food"...I have been using
> >it exclusivly for over 4 years...my fish are doing great...I can get 5
> >pounds at the local feed store for $1.50 plus tax...FWIW..Mike

> Farm Co-ops have #50 of RISE (floating catfish pellets) for $12.40
> here in Indiana. Took 2 days for them to decide, but  my  and GF love
> it. There is another floating food brand, but haven't been to where I
> can get some.

> Lori

--
Kellie
 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by brett rowle » Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:00:00




Quote:
>When Brett says catfish food is not good for koi, it is best to listen to
>him.  He is the one that breeds and raises them.  Catfish are food fish,
>they only live long enough to get big and then they are killed for food.
>Koi are pets, for longevity and health feed them appropriate food.  INgrid


>>I'm glad to see this!  I've used catfish food for the last two summers based
>>on advice from the Botonical gardens.  The fish thrive.  TOO well!!  
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>for care of goldfish go to http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 Thanks, Solo.

I did qualify that with "as a complete diet".  Even so, its better than some of the stuff I hear about.  I've a friend that
feeds bread and cake to her koi.  Others that feed dog or cat food.  Still more that actually feed meat scraps, and
other stuff left over from the table.

If a person has a pond full of koi that got at some "Mart" or other, then I would suppose the savings associated
with using catfish food might be justifiable.  Still not as good as koi food, but as food for junk koi its at least "fish
food".  However, if a person has some nice, well bred koi that represents either a minor or even major investment, it
is a travesty to feed them anything other than a diet designed for them (and maybe a few "treats").  

Sure, catfish and koi food are very similar in many respects.  However, catfish food is lacking in many necessary
nutrients that koi require.  It is also, almost always too greasy for koi.  Especially the cheaper brands which use
beef tallow as the majority of the fat component.  Many cheap catfish foods are not even complete diets for catfish.
It will say so on the label.  Some are designed as a food "supplement" for catfish stocked at low densities in farm
ponds, where the catfish recieve a large part of thier diet and nutrition from the pond and not the supplement.  This
food fed to koi where they have little else to eat is the worst.  

Probably one of the best things I learned in school was "read the label".  If the lable says "feed as a complete diet
to goldfish and koi" it means it can be used as the sole food for those fish.  If it says "feed as a supplement to
catfish" it means the catfish had best be getting other foods in thier diet or they will begin to have nutritional
problems.  That goes 100 times for koi.   Many, if not most, catfish foods found in feed stores where farmers and
ranchers (and suburbanites) shop are the "supplemental" type, not the "complete" type.  To get a complete catfish
food a person would need to special order or be shopping at a feed store that specializes in fish food.  "Complete"
catfish food would be better for koi than "supplemental", but not nearly as good as a "complete" koi food.

OK, saying all that, I actually do feed some feeds to my koi that were not specifically designed for them.  My
broodfish sometimes get "hybrid striper" diet.  It is higher in protein than koi food and is fed to them as a
supplement.  They live in big earthen ponds and get most of what they need to eat in the form of shrimp, crawfish,
aquatic plants, insects, etc.  They use the higher protein from the "complete" striper diet to help form good egg
masses.  The fry are fed "trout and salmon starter".  Another complete, very high protein (60%) diet designed for
the early stages of salmonid fishes.  There is no "koi starter" for one thing, for another, at that life stage, thier
nutritional requirements are very similar to those of almost all very young fish.  The same starter diets are fed to
catfish, stripers, trout, salmon, carps, and other fishes.  It is also just a "supplement" as the koi fry feed heavily on
zooplankton and phytoplankton living in the pond.  The plankton are encouraged by fertilizing with manure and
inorganic fertilizers.  

Koi kept in my holding facility, whcih have no access to other "wild" foods, are fed a good quality koi food.

Even some koi foods are relatively inexpensive, almost as cheap as "complete" catfish foods.  A person can special
order Purina "Mazuri" a decent koi food from any Purina dealer.  It isn't the best, but it is a complete diet and it is
inexpensive.  I feed my koi "Rangen" koi food.  It is not as easy to find, but you can order it from Rangen in Buhl,
Idaho.  It is also not the best, not the cheapest either, but it is a complete diet for koi.  

For those really into koi foods, you can get stuff like "Hikari" (IMHO one of the best), "Izeki", and even bagged up
freeze dried silkworm pupae, very expensive.  

Brett

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Texx » Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Excuse me.. I realize that to you koi afficiandos that my little koi I got
from the *mart* might be *junk* to you but to me they are still beautiful
fish. Could you try and not make the rest of us who can't afford to spend
$$$$ on fish feel stupid for buying them from the *mart*?? Texxi

Quote:



>>When Brett says catfish food is not good for koi, it is best to listen to
>>him.  He is the one that breeds and raises them.  Catfish are food fish,
>>they only live long enough to get big and then they are killed for food.
>>Koi are pets, for longevity and health feed them appropriate food.  INgrid


>>>I'm glad to see this!  I've used catfish food for the last two summers
based
>>>on advice from the Botonical gardens.  The fish thrive.  TOO well!!
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>for care of goldfish go to http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Thanks, Solo.

>I did qualify that with "as a complete diet".  Even so, its better than

some of the stuff I hear about.  I've a friend that
Quote:
>feeds bread and cake to her koi.  Others that feed dog or cat food.  Still

more that actually feed meat scraps, and
Quote:
>other stuff left over from the table.

>If a person has a pond full of koi that got at some "Mart" or other, then I

would suppose the savings associated
Quote:
>with using catfish food might be justifiable.  Still not as good as koi

food, but as food for junk koi its at least "fish
Quote:
>food".  However, if a person has some nice, well bred koi that represents

either a minor or even major investment, it
Quote:
>is a travesty to feed them anything other than a diet designed for them

(and maybe a few "treats").
Quote:

>Sure, catfish and koi food are very similar in many respects.  However,

catfish food is lacking in many necessary
Quote:
>nutrients that koi require.  It is also, almost always too greasy for koi.

Especially the cheaper brands which use
Quote:
>beef tallow as the majority of the fat component.  Many cheap catfish foods

are not even complete diets for catfish.
Quote:
>It will say so on the label.  Some are designed as a food "supplement" for

catfish stocked at low densities in farm
Quote:
>ponds, where the catfish recieve a large part of thier diet and nutrition

from the pond and not the supplement.  This
Quote:
>food fed to koi where they have little else to eat is the worst.

>Probably one of the best things I learned in school was "read the label".

If the lable says "feed as a complete diet
Quote:
>to goldfish and koi" it means it can be used as the sole food for those

fish.  If it says "feed as a supplement to
Quote:
>catfish" it means the catfish had best be getting other foods in thier diet

or they will begin to have nutritional
Quote:
>problems.  That goes 100 times for koi.   Many, if not most, catfish foods

found in feed stores where farmers and
Quote:
>ranchers (and suburbanites) shop are the "supplemental" type, not the

"complete" type.  To get a complete catfish
Quote:
>food a person would need to special order or be shopping at a feed store

that specializes in fish food.  "Complete"
Quote:
>catfish food would be better for koi than "supplemental", but not nearly as

good as a "complete" koi food.
Quote:

>OK, saying all that, I actually do feed some feeds to my koi that were not

specifically designed for them.  My
Quote:
>broodfish sometimes get "hybrid striper" diet.  It is higher in protein

than koi food and is fed to them as a
Quote:
>supplement.  They live in big earthen ponds and get most of what they need

to eat in the form of shrimp, crawfish,
Quote:
>aquatic plants, insects, etc.  They use the higher protein from the

"complete" striper diet to help form good egg
Quote:
>masses.  The fry are fed "trout and salmon starter".  Another complete,

very high protein (60%) diet designed for
Quote:
>the early stages of salmonid fishes.  There is no "koi starter" for one

thing, for another, at that life stage, thier
Quote:
>nutritional requirements are very similar to those of almost all very young

fish.  The same starter diets are fed to
Quote:
>catfish, stripers, trout, salmon, carps, and other fishes.  It is also just

a "supplement" as the koi fry feed heavily on
Quote:
>zooplankton and phytoplankton living in the pond.  The plankton are

encouraged by fertilizing with manure and
Quote:
>inorganic fertilizers.

>Koi kept in my holding facility, whcih have no access to other "wild"

foods, are fed a good quality koi food.
Quote:

>Even some koi foods are relatively inexpensive, almost as cheap as

"complete" catfish foods.  A person can special
Quote:
>order Purina "Mazuri" a decent koi food from any Purina dealer.  It isn't

the best, but it is a complete diet and it is
Quote:
>inexpensive.  I feed my koi "Rangen" koi food.  It is not as easy to find,

but you can order it from Rangen in Buhl,
Quote:
>Idaho.  It is also not the best, not the cheapest either, but it is a

complete diet for koi.
Quote:

>For those really into koi foods, you can get stuff like "Hikari" (IMHO one

of the best), "Izeki", and even bagged up

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>freeze dried silkworm pupae, very expensive.

>Brett

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Derek Broughto » Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

> Excuse me.. I realize that to you koi afficiandos that my little koi I got
> from the *mart* might be *junk* to you but to me they are still beautiful
> fish. Could you try and not make the rest of us who can't afford to spend
> $$$$ on fish feel stupid for buying them from the *mart*?? Texxi

Well, I just went to see a S. Ontario Koi breeder, today.  And I have to say
that those 9 "junk" koi I got for nothing, I've now revalued at about $1000
(OK, only Canadian dollars, so they're still not worth much).  I wasn't at
all impressed with his fish, but if they're worth what he says (and they
must be because he sells them), then I figure mine are worth a thousand.

I guess that means I'm going to have to start buying expensive koi food....

Really Texxi, Brett's not trying to make you feel stupid.  He's often said a
koi is worth exactly what _you_ think it's worth, not what the seller
thinks.  And if you still lived in what Brett thinks of as God's Country,
I'm sure he'd sell you a fish that you could afford, too.

--
Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond)
rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. - Paine

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Kelli » Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:00:00


I do laud and honor Brett's expertise- ;-)  I simply don't agree on this one issue... that's cool.
--
Kellie
 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by brett rowle » Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:00:00




Quote:
>Excuse me.. I realize that to you koi afficiandos that my little koi I got
>from the *mart* might be *junk* to you but to me they are still beautiful
>fish. Could you try and not make the rest of us who can't afford to spend
>$$$$ on fish feel stupid for buying them from the *mart*?? Texxi

I apologize as I never intended to make anybody feel bad.  When referring to my own lowest grade I sell, I call them
"junk" koi also.  Just a term, they really aren't junk, they are nice fish being sold at a low price.

As to affordability, the just plain ugly fish I see in "marts" selling for $29.95 are not even koi, would hardly make
fish bait at most reputable breeding farms.  We sell very nice koi on our one day a week we are open for as little as
$10.  A koi that is well bred and will do well for its owner if cared for like a koi.  For the same $30 you can get
something resembling a koi at a mart, you can have something that might win a prize in a show.  The same is true at
retailers where my (and other reputable breeder's fish) are sold.  Not all decent koi have big price tags.  

Looking for a koi?  Go to a water garden center, a fish shop, even some pet shops.  Find a dealer that knows his/her
fish and something about them.  Don't get me wrong, when starting out, see one of these places and buy what they
are selling in the way of livestock, beginning with the least costly fish to "learn" with.  I never encourage folks to
"invest" in livestock until they are comfortable with thier ability to care for them.  Once you are comfortable in your
abilities, then my motto is "less fish, better fish".  Buy one koi for $100 instead of ten for $10.  

As to feed, of course the koi from my hatchery will do much better if fed koi food and not something else.  A
common carp will do better, however, the level of breeding going into most domestically produced koi is so low
that the fish indeed may not be worth feeding slightly more expensive food to.

Brett

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by brett rowle » Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:00:00




Quote:
>I do laud and honor Brett's expertise- ;-)  I simply don't agree on this one issue... that's cool.
>--
>Kellie

 Don't take my word for it.

Try Erik Johnson (the koivet dude).  He will tell the same or similar tale.  Try any fish nutritionist, yes there are
such, they will concur.  If there were no difference in koi food and catfish food, they wouldn't make two types.  Fish
are like any other animal.  They are widely differing in thier nutritional requirements.  Do you feed cat food to your
birds?

Bird food to your dog?  Carrots to your snake? etc.

In a closed system where the fish depend on thier caregiver for everything, they should be fed a proper and
nutritious food.  Any living thing is deserving of that.  

Brett

 
 
 

Best type of food

Post by Kelli » Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
> As to affordability, the just plain ugly fish I see in "marts" selling for $29.95 are not even koi, would hardly make
> fish bait at most reputable breeding farms.

What ARE they, then?

--
Kellie