sudden koi deaths

Description of your first forum.

sudden koi deaths

Post by Steve Hell » Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:50:41



hi all,
        I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.
 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by vrolso » Thu, 28 Dec 2000 01:38:26


Quote:

> hi all,
>         I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
> large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
> liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
> These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
> successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
> large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
> orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
> opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
> hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
> fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
> for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.

Steve:    I can't give much advice, just my heartfelt condolences.  From
the various posts I have seen here I would guess it has to be something to
do with water quality.  Usuallyl they say if the gib fish die it is lack
of oxygen,  if the small fish die is is some contaminant.  I have a pond
about the same size and fish about  three years old and you loss is what I
dread thinking about.
vern
--
Visit my Ponds at:   HTTP://www.webpak.net/~vrolson
 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by K30 » Thu, 28 Dec 2000 03:43:25


Steve wrote <<  its possible these
fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here >>

I think you've winkled it out.
So sorry over the loss of your fish.

K30A
See my brother's website
http://WWW.30acreimaging.com/
see the labradors at
http://www.daydreamergardens.com/2_level/articles/dog_how_to.htm
K30A and friends' pond information page
http://hometown.aol.com/k30a/myhomepage/writing.html

 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by jan jorda » Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:51:42


Large fish go first when O2 is insufficent, even with a bubbler going
something else could be using up the O2. Fill out the questionnaire below
and we can give a better answer. Do remind us that your problem is the
bigger (koi?) dying over a few days of each other.

Pond Size in Gallons? (litres*.26=US Gallons):

Water Source (Well, Irrigation, City?)
If City how is water treated?: =

Time in Operation?
(How old is the pond/water?):

Liner type? (EPDM,PVC,***,Cement/Concrete etc):

Fish Population?
Type? Size? QTY, Time in Pond:

Food? Type and Frequency of feedings.:

Pump Type, IN/OUT of pond, GPH etc
(Describe your filtration system as well as possible):

Prefilter media type? Last cleaned?:

Filter is BIO or Mechanical? Last cleaned? How?:

Carbon added? How much? When last changed?:

Aeration? Waterfalls? Bubblers?
Venturies?:

Water Temp?

PH?:

Ammonia (ppm or mg/l):

Nitrite (ppm or mg/l):

Nitrate (ppm or mg/l):

Water Color, cloudiness, odor?:

Water changes? (% of pond volume and how often):

Additives used (water conditioners etc):

Tests done by self or another?:

Weather (what's it been like in the last week?):

Medications used?:

What Zone or Country of residence?:

~ jan

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://www.moonsgarden.com/

         ~Keep 'em Thawed~
      Tri-Cities, WA    Zone 7a
         To e-mail see website

Quote:

>    I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
>large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
>liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
>These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
>successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
>large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
>orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
>opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
>hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
>fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
>for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.

 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by CBurrhus » Fri, 29 Dec 2000 01:00:29


wOW ! I am so sorry . I have had a strange death about two years ago. I was
very new at ponding so I was pulled into to every bottle of so called, cures
for sick fish. What I found out later is that you dont need to buy any of
thoses bottles on the shelfs. They are mixes of baking sodan salts, vingar, and
very cheap and simular stuff. However, I am not opposed to buying the bottled
bacteria to esablish good bacteria in the filtration system and the water.
  My strange death was due to a very acid water. I was not knowlegable to the
PH balance, and still now only know the basics. Perhaps uyour PH is off. Gold
fish are hardy fish. I have lost many koi in my first year of ponding. When the
Gold fish die there is a bigger problem.
  I keep a filter running all winter. I keep it high in the water to keep from
pushing the cold water to the bottom of the pond where the fish satay to keep
warmer. I keep it just below water level.
  Good luck..
 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by koikeepe » Fri, 29 Dec 2000 03:45:15


There could be several reason.

Waste build-up
total size of fish surpassed capacity of pond with no circulation biggest
fish with biggest demand goes first.
Or too radical drop in temperature over a short period of time.
or a combination of these factors.
Where in NY are you?.

I am still circulating my water and I run a water drip do supply water due
to icefall buildup which make a nice picture.

For more information on the planting of Bamboo please e-mail

Quote:

> hi all,
>         I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
> large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
> liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
> These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
> successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
> large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
> orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
> opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
> hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
> fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
> for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.

 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by rabi » Sat, 30 Dec 2000 02:32:42


with a pond your size i don't think any of these answers fit.....
oxygen content is at its highest in the winter, fish demands at its
lowest........if you for sure have some degassing, my guess would be,
or at least a possibility, is that these are females with eggs.....i
had a client lost 15 fish one winter, almost all females because they
were carrying eggs and this depleted there  reserves...

it is way too early for any weak fish to die from the winter, that is
usually february.....

losing fish sux, especially at christmas.......sorry
Randall Clarke
www.clarkekoi.com


wrotf:

Quote:
>There could be several reason.

>Waste build-up
>total size of fish surpassed capacity of pond with no circulation biggest
>fish with biggest demand goes first.
>Or too radical drop in temperature over a short period of time.
>or a combination of these factors.
>Where in NY are you?.

>I am still circulating my water and I run a water drip do supply water due
>to icefall buildup which make a nice picture.

>For more information on the planting of Bamboo please e-mail


>> hi all,
>>         I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
>> large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
>> liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
>> These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
>> successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
>> large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
>> orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
>> opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
>> hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
>> fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
>> for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.

 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by Steve Hell » Tue, 02 Jan 2001 07:20:14




Quote:
>Large fish go first when O2 is insufficent, even with a bubbler going
>something else could be using up the O2. Fill out the questionnaire below
>and we can give a better answer. Do remind us that your problem is the
>bigger (koi?) dying over a few days of each other.

>Pond Size in Gallons? (litres*.26=US Gallons): approx 2800 gallons

>Water Source (Well, Irrigation, City?)
>If City how is water treated?: =  city, don't know treatment, but have used the same water since '92

>Time in Operation?
>(How old is the pond/water?): 8 years

>Liner type? (EPDM,PVC,***,Cement/Concrete etc):  epdm    

>Fish Population?
>Type? Size? QTY, Time in Pond: koi (12 now 2), goldfish(about 20 from 1to 5"), golden river minnows (?100), golden orfe (2, 8")

>Food? Type and Frequency of feedings.: pond pellets, stopped feeding in late October as soon as the water temp hits 50

>Pump Type, IN/OUT of pond, GPH etc
>(Describe your filtration system as well as possible): out of pond sequence 1000, 2600 gal/hour, first into a 175 gallon settling chamber, then to a 55 gallon drip filter containing

ribbon media and lava rocks and return. 1/4of the water is diverted to
a falls, and some to another little pond (60 gallon) acting as a
settling chamber and back to the pond. (the large settling
filter/chamber also contains water hyacinths)

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>Prefilter media type? Last cleaned?: none, unless you consider the first stage the prefilter (175 gal settling chamber w/fibreglass screen and hyacinths)

>Filter is BIO or Mechanical? Last cleaned? How?: two stage filter as described above, half mechanical and half biological

>Carbon added? How much? When last changed?: none

>Aeration? Waterfalls? Bubblers? waterfalls, two
>Venturies?:

>Water Temp? average temp 75 during the summer (part shade from large maple)

>PH?: don't know, but will try and take a reading (very cold, and most readings at this temp are not considered accurate, right?

>Ammonia (ppm or mg/l): see above

>Nitrite (ppm or mg/l): low or none  

>Nitrate (ppm or mg/l): none

>Water Color, cloudiness, odor?: brownish, clear, slight pond odor(typical)

>Water changes? (% of pond volume and how often): I change 10% every couple of weeks,but hadn't done one during a span of over a month because very busy

>Additives used (water conditioners etc): none

>Tests done by self or another?: self

>Weather (what's it been like in the last week?): freezing, temps in low 30's

>Medications used?: none

>What Zone or Country of residence?: long Island, NY USA zone 7

>~ jan

>See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
>http://www.moonsgarden.com/

>         ~Keep 'em Thawed~
>      Tri-Cities, WA    Zone 7a
>         To e-mail see website


>>        I'm hoping someone can give me a reason why I've lost all my
>>large koi (over 10") within a couple days of each other.  I have a
>>liner pond in NY that is about 2800 gallons and has been up since '92.
>>These fish were all original little koi back in '92, and have wintered
>>successfully each year since then. Why all of a sudden would ONLY the
>>large koi die off, and not a single goldfish, golden minnow, golden
>>orfe or a coupleof smaller koi be affected? An airstone keeps an
>>opening in the ice the same way for 8 years without a loss. I'm very
>>hesitant to add any fish next year, thinking maybe its possible these
>>fish have just gotten too large, and their numbers made it impossible
>>for them all to survive w/o filtration now that the winter is here.

 
 
 

sudden koi deaths

Post by jan jorda » Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:11:12


Hi Steve, I just saw your answer 1/10/01, sheesh, did the pony express take
over the internet or what?

So I need to review: Your problem was.. bigger (koi?) dying over a few days
of each other.

Quote:
>>Pond Size
>approx 2800 gallons
>>Water Source
>city, don't know treatment, but have used the same water since '92

You might want to find out. This could be the part of the problem. Water
treatment plants do change without notification to the public, especially
if you're not using something to treat the water.

Quote:
>>Time in Operation?
>>(How old is the pond/water?):
>8 years, Liner, epdm        
>>Fish Population?
>koi (12 now 2), goldfish(about 20 from 1to 5"), golden river minnows
>(?100), golden orfe (2, 8")

Originally then 44 fish and lots of little ones.  High fish load for 2800g
if the koi were in the 10-24" size.

Quote:
>>Food? Type and Frequency of feedings.:
>pond pellets, stopped feeding in late October as soon as the water temp hits 50
>>Pump Type, IN/OUT of pond, GPH etc
>>(Describe your filtration system as well as possible):
>out of pond sequence 1000, 2600 gal/hour, first into a 175 gallon settling
>chamber, then to a 55 gallon drip filter containing
>ribbon media and lava rocks and return. 1/4of the water is diverted to
>a falls, and some to another little pond (60 gallon) acting as a
>settling chamber and back to the pond. (the large settling
>filter/chamber also contains water hyacinths)

But not running now, or still running?

Quote:
>>Prefilter media type? Last cleaned?:
>none, unless you consider the first stage the prefilter
>(175 gal settling chamber w/fibreglass screen and hyacinths)

Yes that is your pre-filter and sounds like mechanical filter in one.

Quote:
>>Filter is BIO or Mechanical? Last cleaned? How?:
>two stage filter as described above, half mechanical and half biological

>>Carbon?
>none
>>Aeration? Waterfalls? Bubblers?
>waterfalls, two

Running now? If filter and waterfalls are running when fish are not being
fed this could have stressed them.   But usually smaller koi die first.

Quote:
>>Water Temp?
>average temp 75 during the summer (part shade from large maple)

They died this summer or just recently?

Quote:
>>PH?:
>don't know, but will try and take a reading (very cold, and most readings
>at this temp are not considered accurate, right?

Definitely effects Ammonia, nitrate, etc. but I think pH still works. Try a
cold one and one set on the counter inside after it warms up.

Quote:
>>Ammonia (ppm or mg/l):
>see above

See above? Oh, not working in cold water. Bring in, let it warm to room
temp. then test.

Quote:
>>Nitrite (ppm or mg/l):
>low or none
>>Nitrate (ppm or mg/l):
>none
>>Water Color, cloudiness, odor?:
>brownish, clear, slight pond odor(typical)
>>Water changes? (% of pond volume and how often):
>I change 10% every couple of weeks,but hadn't done one
>during a span of over a month because very busy

>>Additives used (water conditioners etc):
>none
>>Tests done by self or another?:
>self
>>Weather (what's it been like in the last week?):
>freezing, temps in low 30's
>>Medications used?:
>none
>>What Zone or Country of residence?:
>long Island, NY USA zone 7

Okay Steve. I went back and read your original post and sounds like that
maybe you did have a high fish load for what the bubbler could put in the
water. Did you ever see these fish at the surface gasping? Perhaps they had
a gill parasite and/or something had changed at your water treatment plant
that damaged the gills making it harder to take in enough O2.

Have you kept the bottom of the pond muck free (or fairly so)? This could
have used up O2.  Treatment add more air stones.

If the fish numbers have stablized I think your guess of, two many fish is
probably right. So you can either stay with the fish population you have
now or try to reduce the other fish numbers so you can raise larger koi and
make sure your bottom is clean in the fall. With the filtration you have
and 2,800 gallons, there should be no reason you can't have 14-20 koi IMO.

Sorry to be so late answering this. ~ jan